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Or more importantly, how does one go about learning it? Is it keeping the melody the same while changing the chord under it? Or a system of making new melodies?
I think the closest I get to this is using chord voicings that don't have the regular melody note on top, usually emphasizing the 9th or 6th, but I know that's not it.
I love hearing a new melody over old chords but the same melody over new chords is cool too.
How do you learn to resolve the new chords voicings and/or melody notes? What I mean is, doesn't one chord that feels a little out or vague want to be followed by another one, instead of jumping back into regular voicings?
I'm not really sure how to ask my question, but I want to play chords and lines that are a little outside the regular chords and arpeggios without sounding like I'm lost, even though I probably will be. thx
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09-15-2013 03:05 AM
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Learning the nuts and bolts of subbing is easy enough, do a little research ,check out Ted Greene's pages on it...The real challange is making it sound like something other then a mess of unrelated cords...In fact you will hear guys subbing through standards and really they can ruin a nice tune....I usually add in a few subs, too many and it starts to fall apart. I think its the creative process, some are better at it then others....It is keeping the melody the same and changing the cords....the harmony....
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IMHO, reharmonizing is based around what you, the listener, wants to hear. Sometimes it wanders into an academic exercize, and that's OK as long as it is kept in perspective. Like the previous poster said, it sometimes gets lost and the mood or feel of the original tune is obscured by the meandering chords. Keep true to the melody line in as much as possible with "grace notes" connecting the new harmonies and leading into the melody line. Martin Taylor is wonderful at taking the listener on excursions while remain faithful to the tune.
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When I studied with Howard Roberts he had a system of re harmonizing going backwards. Something like playing the chords in reverse from the end of the tune. I obviously didn't get it. I just nodded like, oh yeah. But it went right over my head. If anyone knows this system, please let me know. You know, I should probably just try it again. I could probably figure it out myself!!! Lol.
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When I was taught to reharmonize it was to write a new bass line/root movements then decide on chord based on relationship of melody to new bass note.
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i've heard od Howard roberts, but frankly, have no ideao about his methods. Nevertheless, here I play simplistic chord melody of an infamous tune backwards. As a proof, when you play the recording backwards, melody becomes reckongnizable:
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Henry, was he talking about back cycling?....
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Henry, was he talking about back cycling?....Vlad, what the hell was that!..( my funny valentine!)...ha,ha...
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Vladan - I'll have to listen later. I'm not in a situation where I can listen right now.
Back cycling?? I have idea. What's that?
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Howard used to talk about it at GIT, basically a circle of fifths of dominant chords. Howard would have a target chord in mind then go ahead of it and backcycle to the target with dominant 7ths. Think rhythm changes bridge. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Yeah. That sounds familiar. I remember. I don't think it was back cycling exactly. But related. Maybe back cycling . . . Hell. I don't know.
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I thought backcycling is too well known term to have any doubts about it. One way to look at it is, if you're at one place ona circle of 5ths/4ths, you can leap from it to any spot on circle, then come back stepwise. Some leaps are more common than the others.
Just to add, by no means I could ever thought H. Roberts was ever even contemplating about the thing I did with Valentine tune.
I made it as an (post)modern artistic excersise, and put it in this thread as humorous digression.
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Yeah, I know back cycling. I just didn't have a word for it. Monk was very found of doing it. Rhythm Changes. Starting on F#7 and cycling back to Bb. I do this from time to time.
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Henry and others - I always hear the term "backcycling", and I assume that I may already do it without being aware, but could someone take a particular song and provide a short and basic illustration of backcycling using chords in a key.
Yesterday I recorded a version of My Foolish Heart in the key of A. Then last night I was listening and playing along with my favorite version of that song which is the Tony Bennett and Bill Evans collaboration in Bb. Just brilliant.
I noted that some sources such as my Hal Leonard Real Little Fakebook of Jazz differ slightly in their approach to the chord progression, which is not in itself significant. But a song like that - how would you reharmonize it specifically in terms of 'backcycling'?
There might be something right in the first line - In the key of Bb, I would play
The (Bbma7) night (Ebma7) is like a (Dm7b5/Ab or 11) lovely (G7#5) tune, be- (Cm7) ware my (Am7b5) foolish (D7b9) heart.....
Bill Evans seemed to use an Ab7 or Ab7b5 in place of the Dm7/11. Is my use of the Ebma7 - Dm7b5/Ab an example of backcycling?
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don't make it too hard.....As stated...just cycle in 4ths.....example ADGCF......target cord FMaj.7.....you have 4 notes infront of the FM7....ADGC...you build an A7...or any A with the melody note in the saprano....keeping in mind your looking to get a nice base line out of this also.....so you build the progression to the FM7....you can work through a whole tune this way ( as Robert Conti points out )....or use it for a few bars...your choice....another tool in the tool box for creating a nice cord melody....from your lead sheet.....then, for fun, you could do tri-tone subs on the cords....it can get crazy....it makes me think, hell, just use any damn cord, forget the theory....but, we all need methods....I guess..The robert conti formula goes through this with a lot of examples....I recommend it, I enjoyed working through it....it was a great course.....
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Bebop variant on the blues
FMa7 | Em7b5 A7 | Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb7
Giant Steps cycle variant on II V I
Dm7 Eb7 | Ab B7 | E G7 | C
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Thanks for the replies.
I understand cycle of 4ths, backcycling and the concept of turning dominants into ii-V7's but I thought there was much more to reharmonizing than this.
Where do the minor 11ths and tetra chords come in?
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Bako - so 'backcycling' from the Bb7 to the F chord is using the V chord (major or minor) or cycling in fifths back from the Bb7 to the F?
Not sure I see the logic in the Giant Steps example, but then again, I've always cared very little for that tune.
As I said, I think I do this stuff already without distinguishing it with a name.
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A well known NYC jazz guitarist said in response to students asking about learning chord substitutions, to ask again after they learn a few hundred songs. The progressional events that occurs in jazz songs is generally the same stuff that
forms the basis of reharmonization.
Some useful foundational skills:
The ability to see the interval and harmonic meaning of a melody note in relation to any root and chord quality.
Knowledge of how chords can progress, common and otherwise.
The ability to voice lead anything to anything else.
Awareness of the strong and weak side of the beat within a melody.
Knowledge of style.
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targuit,
Starting on F bar 1 with a destination of Bb7 bar 5.
F | F | F | Cm7 F7 | Bb7
F | F | Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb7
F | Em7b5 A7 | Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb7
If we were to go one further, perhaps
F#m7b5 B7 | Em7b5 A7 | Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 | Bb7
The Giant Steps example is based on a V7 I motion to major chords progressing in descending major 3rds.
Dm7 Eb7 | Ab B7 | E G7 | C
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Well, that was my observation - you appear to be cycling back from the destination Bb7 chord by major or minor fifths below. Bb7 to F7, F7 to Cm7, Cm7 to G7, etc. I mean if that is the pattern that fits the term it makes sense. In any case I have never found a precise 'definition' of the term backcycling. But I get the first example.
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Here's an attempt at a definition, not quite ready for prime time dictionary but hopefully will clarify more than confuse.
Backcycling---The act of thinking backwards from a point of arrival in a way that is similar to adding approach chords but
with movements organized by intervallic cycles. Cycle 4 and the related tritone subs are the most common motions, so much so that some might say the story ends there, but there are other possibilities.
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To back cycle, you need 3 things.
1. A cycle
2. Point of origin, on that cycle.
3. Point of return, on that same cycle
So, from 3. you go back to 2., while remaining on 1.
Congrats, you've back cycled sucessfuly.
It's sort of coming back home, one you never had , but not really.
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Another approach is the use of the V of the underlying chord.
The reharmonizing of the first notes of Autumn Leaves in Em:
e - f# - g - c
Could be something like:
e - a d# f# - g# d g - g c e c
The first chord (a d# f#) is a B7, the V of Em and the second chord (g# d g) is E#9, the V of Am.
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Take a look at "over the rainbow"...its full of backcycles....we are just touching on a few of the methods to reharmonize, check out John Amato's web site, and Eddie Arkin has a book on reharmonizing...Not sure what you mean by where do the minor 11ths come in, you find a minor cord where you can put the 11th in the melody...
Last edited by artcore; 09-17-2013 at 09:03 AM.
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