Big Band Tips

**srlank** · 03-06-2012, 07:53 PM

Hello all,

I recently joined a big band where we sight-read new charts every week; and I am looking for some tips. The charts seem pretty old-school much of the time, and I get the feeling the guitar is supposed to lay pretty low (felt not heard type of situation). It also seems like a lot of the charts beg a Freddy Green chunk chunk 4 to the bar comp. I use a lot of 3rds and 7ths and triads for quicker changes. I am wondering if any of you have any further tips on how to add to the band without getting in anyone's way.

BTW, I am using a 15 inch hollowbody Eastman plugged in through the band's Roland JC 120. I don't use the chorus though, because it just doesn't sound all that good to me, at least in that context.

Thx for any help!

Sharon

**mike g** · 03-06-2012, 10:30 PM

I"ve been playing in 2 big bands for about 10 years now. A lot of sight reading. My first advice would be not to worry about extensions and just hit the basic 7 chords. As you said 3rd and 7ths are cool.
I try to listen to the hi-hat to get the Freddie Green rhythm going if necessary. Concentrate on the 2 and 4 and just listen to the section. (If the drummer's weak you gotta push him/her!)
Once you get used to the piano player then you can stretch out harmonically.
I also practice sightreading every day...whatever---lead sheets, clarinet books etc. I like to disprove the myth that guitarists can't read

Good luck.you're gonna have a blast

**Section Player** · 03-06-2012, 11:37 PM

I played in big band for about 12 years. A lot of arrangers don't know how to write a chart for guitar, so they give you the changes in chord symbols (which is the norm and is ok), and then put four strokes in each measure. That doesn't mean Freddy Green style, though. I've seen charts where there is a notation asking for Freddy Green style and only then do I play it that way. Unless the piece seems like a Basie kind of thing.

The main thing is to navigate around the piano player. If you're both playing the same chords at the same time, it doesn't sound good...it thickens it up. Most piano players are not used to having a guitar sitting there so they will ignore what you're doing and pound away. I always liked to have a friendly conversation with the keyboard guy early on, maybe during a break or before the first downbeat, and talk about staying out of each other's way. Most of them don't get it right away.

Start with who's going to comp during which solos. Trade those off. You comp during the flugelhorn solo, and he comps during the sax solo, etc. He'll start to get it.

That aside, I liked to throw in a chord here and there where it seemed to sound good.....like an accent, waiting for a semi-opening in a measure or 16 bar section, for instance. Takes using your ears but that's good.

**srlank** · 03-07-2012, 01:17 AM

Thx Mike and Section Player. Some good food for thought, and also a good idea to actually practice some sight-reading at home. The sight-reading of rhythms is the biggest challenge for me right now. I am somewhat encouraged that I get more accurate with them when the director rehearses a piece 2 or 3 times through.

BTW, I found a pretty cool app for my iPhone this evening that lets you sight-read rhythms. It's called ReadRhythm.

And yeah, I'm a bit nervous adjusting, but I am having a blast!

**Section Player** · 03-07-2012, 12:18 PM

I second what Mike said about sight reading. Well worth the effort. In a certain sense, reading rhythm notation is harder than the notes themselves. Be sure to practice reading, scales, and chord forms in the big band keys you will see most often, like B flat, E flat, F, maybe G? We're talking keys that are common for horn arrangements.

If you get a particularly tough chart, ask if you can take it home and woodshed it.

Have fun....I loved it!

**srlank** · 03-07-2012, 02:16 PM

Thx Section Player,

Some great ideas. I had never thought of copying or taking a chart home, but yeah.....sounds like a real good plan. Also practicing reading in various keys. Seems like I always got to remind myself to check out the key sig BEFORE the tune starts! LOL

And you know, I thought I knew the notes okay, but I haven't done a lot of work on shifting without looking at the fingerboard, and that has been a big problem when single notes are going by fast.

**FatJeff** · 03-07-2012, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Section Player

I played in big band for about 12 years. A lot of arrangers don't know how to write a chart for guitar, so they give you the changes in chord symbols (which is the norm and is ok), and then put four strokes in each measure. That doesn't mean Freddy Green style, though. I've seen charts where there is a notation asking for Freddy Green style and only then do I play it that way. Unless the piece seems like a Basie kind of thing.

The main thing is to navigate around the piano player. If you're both playing the same chords at the same time, it doesn't sound good...it thickens it up. Most piano players are not used to having a guitar sitting there so they will ignore what you're doing and pound away. I always liked to have a friendly conversation with the keyboard guy early on, maybe during a break or before the first downbeat, and talk about staying out of each other's way. Most of them don't get it right away.

Start with who's going to comp during which solos. Trade those off. You comp during the flugelhorn solo, and he comps during the sax solo, etc. He'll start to get it.

That aside, I liked to throw in a chord here and there where it seemed to sound good.....like an accent, waiting for a semi-opening in a measure or 16 bar section, for instance. Takes using your ears but that's good.

Exactly my experience and approach. Glad to hear others have pretty much figured out the same thing.

**Gitarguy** · 03-07-2012, 10:26 PM

Originally Posted by Section Player

If you get a particularly tough chart, ask if you can take it home and woodshed it.

I xerox everything. We sight-read lotsa charts, but we play a bunch of them in concert or at a dance, too. I like to write on stuff. I even use colored markers to help me find the repeats and signs quicker.

I would stay to mostly 7th chords for sight-reading. If you play the chart again, or add it to the book, then you can work on it more later. In a Big Band, the extensions are in the other parts anyway. Talk to the director to see what he wants. A lot of them will want a Freddy Green 4-to-a-bar style on everything that doesn't say otherwise. Which is OK, you can still have a lot of fun. Sync up with the high hat for timing.

For slower T-bone feature ballads, I usually play half note chords so not to step on the 'bones.

**srlank** · 03-07-2012, 11:25 PM

Hey thx Gitarguy,

Yeah, I'm taking a conservative approach right now, because the horns have a lot of wild rhythmic figures; and it seems like every time I start comping like I might with a smaller unit, that I am stepping on someone either rhythmically or harmonically. Nice idea to to wait a couple of read-throughs before venturing out. It's very restrictive in many ways, but Im trying to focus on getting a good groove (thx for the reminder to focus on the hi-hat) and a good tone out of my hollowbody.

**Gitarguy** · 03-08-2012, 12:19 AM

A Big Band is different than a small combo. Remember, it's not about you; it's a team sport. You're part of the Rhythm Section, and that's your purpose at that time. The drums, bass and guitar should be hooked up, and usually the piano will comp and spice up the rhythm.

If you both do it, then things can get really messy. Wouldn't hurt to talk to the piano player if there are certain tunes you want to be more free on for the show.

**srlank** · 03-08-2012, 12:43 AM

Yep, you got it right!

**oldane** · 03-08-2012, 10:45 AM

Amazon.com: Swing and Big Band Guitar: Four-To-The Bar Comping in the Style of Freddie Green (0073999951479): Charlton Johnson: Books

The three note chords in this book is a starting point. Freddie Green usually played only one or two notes in later years. A rhythm guitar in the Freddie Green style is a rhythm instrument more than a chord instrument. It's there as a rhythmic anchor - but if course the guitar must fit the chart harmonically. Go for good voice leading with small and "shell" chords rather than spicy extensions and alterations. Freddie Green himself viewed his gutar as "a snare drum in Eb or a high hat in Ab".

**jasonc** · 03-08-2012, 02:56 PM

That's how I think of it too. I try and make it sound like the drummer is playing chords. It really does depend on the particular band how you should play. I played in a big band that did a lot of Thad Jones and Mel Lewis type stuff at the same time I was playing in a dance band....two different bags. Another tip is to decipher the progression so you can simplify it according to chord function. For example if I saw (in the key of Eb) Ab Maj7 then Fmin7b5 to Eb, I think IV-iv-I. I worked with a piano player that wrote the worst charts because he always wrote the chord down according to what inversion he was playing not what the function of the chord was. He would write stuff like FMaj7 to Db13, which makes no sense until you figure out he's really playing Dmin7 with the third in the bass to Db13 or the tritone of G7. So what first appeared to be some kind of funky chord change really just turned out to be a ii-V-I in C. I think a lot of arrangers think like my piano player.

**Reg** · 03-08-2012, 03:25 PM

... I have and still play and record with big bands since the early 70's Most old school charts are simple changes with slashes and rhythmic kicks. Sounds like your somewhat of a beginner to BB's... Your goal as part of the rhythm section... is to have balance and hold the harmonic and rhythmic groove of the tune together, (as a rhythm section). If you continue to play in a big band... get use to incorrectly notated changes... lousy and incomplete parts.
Fifty years ago the typical guitar parts were simple Freddie Green style percussive time-keeping parts. Many composers and arrangers still don't know how to notate rhythm section parts. Liston to Maria Schneider or Bob Mintzer big band charts to hear and see hipper rhythm section notation and parts.
Part of playing jazz is using your ears... This is also true in Big Bands, especially with rhythm sections. The changes are for the most part... simply a guide... as with all jazz tunes, any one chord really represents a series of chords or what most call, "a chord pattern". CP's are from basically all the standards and many of the more contemporary tunes. Can be as simple as I VI II V, series of subs , a typical Modal Interchange passage, or blue note influenced changes etc...
All tunes have a Harmonic Rhythm as well as a Rhythmic Accent Pattern, the groove or style, swing, latin etc... The trick to comping is to not interfere with that harmonic or rhythmic accent pattern... what you as a rhythmic section play... should imply that harmonic or rhythmic pattern. Generally any thing different than those patterns is considered the weak side... that's where you have space to have fun and help make the chart hipper... and play more in a jazz style. As long as you don't take away from what should be implied... compared to memorize and perform... that's not really jazz... gets old fast.
If your still somewhat a beginner you may need to keep it simple... but be aware of where you want get.
One more detail about SIGHT READING... if your practicing the part, it's not sight reading and you'll become good at practicing parts as compared to sight reading. I do understand that you need to cover... sound good, but if you want to improve...
Soloing over a big band is....can be incredible... I'll dig up some CDs with BB's and post... or even better I usually gig at least once a week with a BB... I'll try and video a tune... I'll hear some shit from the band... who cares...Reg

**oldane** · 03-08-2012, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by jasonc

It really does depend on the particular band how you should play. I played in a big band that did a lot of Thad Jones and Mel Lewis type stuff at the same time I was playing in a dance band....two different bags.

Thad Jones/Mel Lewis orch was great band. I heard them live in a small club in Copenhagen back in the 1970s. The orchestra took up a third of the space in the club. Interestingly, on the "Central Park North" album they actually used two guitarists - Barry Galbraith on acoustic 4-to-the-bar rhythm guitar and another guitarist for electric almost funk like playing.

I worked with a piano player that wrote the worst charts because he always wrote the chord down according to what inversion he was playing not what the function of the chord was. He would write stuff like FMaj7 to Db13, which makes no sense until you figure out he's really playing Dmin7 with the third in the bass to Db13 or the tritone of G7. So what first appeared to be some kind of funky chord change really just turned out to be a ii-V-I in C.

One could suspect that he had an unsure grasp on functional harmony or at least notation conventions. His own private shorthand system may have worked OK for himself at the piano, but not for others. Besides his chosen voicings on the piano was likely not relevant for you.

**jasonc** · 03-08-2012, 04:34 PM

He understood it. It was just all the same to him and he always defined a chord by whatever he had in the bass. I've seen plenty of charts written the same way.

**Section Player** · 03-08-2012, 08:09 PM

Ed Bickert gets some great solos on some of the Rob McConnell tracks. You'll also hear him comping on some.....this is really hip guitar work and worth checking out. iTunes has some McConnell material.

**srlank** · 03-08-2012, 08:12 PM

Thx guys for your thoughtful replies, and the insight that it's going to be important to simplify the progressions. And yes I have been seeing some strange progressions! The director takes a lot of time to rehearse the horns however, and it gives me time to try and decipher what's going on. And that's actually what first got me into playing a lot of 3rds and 7ths, with at times a hybrid right hand style. Also, I have been using a lot of 3-part shell voicings, but then began to mute the lower voice and use it more as a percussive sound with the pick than an actual note. I started doing this, because I sometimes think I might be getting in the way of the bass player. Maybe you all could give me some feedback on what you do with the voices on the lower strings.

Yes Reg you are right that I am pretty new to BB, and so I'm pretty focused on keeping it simple, with a good lock-in with the rest of the rhythm section. And then feeling out where I can expand. And thank you for the offer to give some audio examples related to the concepts you mentioned. That of course would be terrific.

Sharon

**srlank** · 03-08-2012, 11:41 PM

Oldane, I clicked the link for the book you suggested, and the reviews give some great advice without even buying the book!

**Gitarguy** · 03-09-2012, 02:43 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

The three note chords in this book is a starting point. Freddie Green usually played only one or two notes in later years.

The "three note" system is widely popular, but it does have some problems. I don't use it, but a friend does and he usually plays R 3 7 in the same octave on 5th and 6th string roots.

The main problem is that it can really stomp on the bass player. In that case, this causes animosity between you and the bassist, at best.

Secondary is that low close intervals can sound very dissonant even if they technically are not. (For example, the low E string in an open C chord.) Again, one has to consider the interval between the bass note and the guitar's lowest note.

My experience, YMMV.