The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    There seems to be a "mystery" wrapped up in the Lydian mode.The way it functions.
    I as a foolish blues rocker with modal tendencies chose to ignore the Lydian ,because as it lays on the guitar you can just drop the root of the Phrygian.
    I have been reading things on this forum and others . I've heard lots of talk
    of the Lydian .I don't necessarily understand how it functions.
    A year and a half ago I was searching for an exotic scale that had intrigued me for years. It turned out to be the 5th inversion of harmonic minor.I call it
    Mixolydian b2-b6 . Figured it out by ear , reference:Sombrero Sam Charles Lloyd. Anyway ,in my search (ear) I invented this cool exotic scale my ear could guide me through . Of course being a genius ,I was pretty stoked about my invention . Upon further analysis It turned out to be the Lydian mode (what an idiot) .Hmmm file that in the subconscious.
    Anyway down the road ,I am in a new band , quasi- modal jazz-ular at times . The other guitar player writes a lot of the stuff we do.He has a natural ear for music,and not much book learning. He wrote a new tune .
    The progression is simple , C# min , A maj no 7 (caged cowboy chord) ,F#min7 ,G#maj b7 if you choose . I could not figure out what key to solo in.
    I fiddled and fiddled ,then tried the A Lydian....seems to work .So we're actually in E maj . The G#maj chord still stumps me . A ,V chord subbed for a 111?
    So I guess my question is what is the definition of Tonal Gravity ?
    I cannot afford the George Russell Lydian Chromatic Concept book so my local library ordered it for me . I cannot find a lot of info on the web . I am dying to unlock this "mystery wrapped in an enigma".I can't wait to get the book .I realize that it is a lifetime study . I get tone center but, not tonal gravity. I'm guessing it is the first term to wrap my mind ears an fingers around.
    Many advanced players an teachers here , I am a dedicated lurker.
    Any help or conversation would be much appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Otto

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  3. #2
    Please excuse me if I posted in the wrong forum.

  4. #3

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    It depends upon the melody and placement of the changes, but it sounds like you're describing a C# minor key center:

    C#- is the tonic (the i chord)
    A is the bVI
    F#-7 is the iv, and
    G#7 is the V

    Not so mysterious.

  5. #4

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    C#m---A---F#m7---G#7

    The key is C#m. All of those chords derive from C# harmonic minor but I don't hear it that way without sonic evidence pointing me in that direction.
    I hear it as C# natural minor (relative to E major) with adjustment for the G#7. The C#,E and A notes are prominent in the progression and if you combine those with the chord tones---G# A B# C# D# E F# (C#m from the harmonic minor 5th degree).

    There are other possibilities. An important starting place is the melody. Harmony is created by the sum total of all the notes played and not just the chord instruments.
    What notes does the melody add to the chord/scale?

    We are not bound to play improvisations limited by what has been previously stated but like in a discussion it is helpful to know what was said
    before responding.

    Tonal gravity is a big subject. Can you refine your question perhaps with musical examples like the one above to provide a focus?.

  6. #5

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    Definately C#min...Emaj, A lydian, C#natural minor are all the same notes..4#s
    The G#7 as stated previously is the V7 which would bring us to C# harmonic with the B# (c).

  7. #6
    The raised 4 in Lydian is the exact center of the key .As I've thought about it,must have the most tonal gravity .I'm guessing ? This has significance
    because it pulls you . Each interval has a different pull. The more I can manipulate those pulls the better player I'll be .
    The A lydian had the most common notes of the progression.......of course it did ...the only odd chord was G# maj ....C# natmin or Emaj is the tonal center....what ever you choose to call it.
    I guess I'm trying to figure out how to make harmony move.
    The number 4, the IV chord and Intervallo El Diablo has caught my attention again ,and I can't figure out the question.

  8. #7

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    Yeah, you could look at it either way. C# natural minor with v chord being used as a secondary dom V7, or as HM.

    A lydian #9 (bVI of C# HM) works fine over the AM7#11, as would A lydian (IV of E), phrygian dom over G7. Or we can start playing with MM and h/w dim as well, by changing perspective.

    When I see those chords I think C# HM not C# natural minor, but that is just how I hear it. Though as Bako pointed out it all depends on the melody as to what it actually is.
    Last edited by brwnhornet59; 03-01-2012 at 01:51 PM.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by ottocat
    ... I guess I'm trying to figure out how to make harmony move ...
    With your solo lines, you mean? Play chord tones and use altered over the V7.

  10. #9

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    Some ideas...

    For the C# minor you might play C# Dorian, natural minor, or the other minors. I would consider subbing C#min6, or C#majmin or whatever you call this: (x)(7)(6)(5)(4)(x)... or play the C# diminished whole-half for an outside sound from the start.
    For the A, A Lydian Dominant sound right and the notes A, B, C#, D#, E, and F# will be shared between both the A (Lydian) and the C#(Dorian)... and the upcoming F#m7(Dorian)...so melodies may stem from there...
    Dorian for the F#m7 is sensible, but I would try to explore. Dorian here is keeping in line with the string of notes mentioned above... might look for something else. Maybe substitute F# 11th Suspended 2nd like this:
    (2)(4)(4)(4)(5)(4) for a quartal sound, and play B Lydian Dominant over that - this leads into the fancy G# chord below pretty nice.
    The G# chord is the heart of this progression.
    Try something like G# 7th Flat 13th Flat 9th or whatever you call this chord:
    (4)(3)(4)(5)(5)(5)
    and play maybe from the G# diminished half-whole scale...

  11. #10

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    Tonal Gravity

    tonal gravity

    Whatever you wanna call it ,it's C#min

  12. #11

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    The advice you're getting here is spot on Ottocat. Go with it and don't worry so much about Tonal Gravity. It really doesn't have very much to do with what you're asking. I've studied Rusell's book very intensely, I own it, and while there is a lot in it I like, much of it I don't agree with. I can tell you that all it will do regarding this simplistic chord progression being discussed is confuse it more for you.

    You DO NOT need LCCOTO to be able to play through this.
    Last edited by paynow; 03-01-2012 at 12:23 PM. Reason: Even though I understand "Lydian Chromatic Concepts," I still have trouble typing without misspelling words. Great.

  13. #12
    Great advice ,thank you for the suggestions . It is a simple progression .
    The deal is the first several times I played it , I could not figure out the key it was in.So I just used the chord tones , to fake my solo .It worked of course,
    but I wanted to play through the progression , not on or over the progression . At first I thought it was Amaj . That didn't quite work .
    I had been studying Lydian , lydian dominant , LD#9 (thanks to one of the suggestions ) . A Ionian didn't work .All the chords seemed to fit A Ionian except that pesky G# dom chord . I was soloing in A I .What happens if I raise the 4th of A Ionian......bingo there's the key . Aha !
    The progression stumped me because there is no I chord . The G# chord still doesn't fit the key ,but easy to adjust for ,so I called it a sub.
    I had been hearing about GR and LCC tied to Miles .Thought I'd start investigating . I couldn't find anything understandable about LCC .So I thought I'd ask. Tonal Gravity was a term that kept coming up . After my first post ,I told myself TG needs a definition .So I found the definition that was suggested and read it.
    So I am trying to pull the harmony around with my solos , via triads and such devises . Therefore the LCC sounded interesting .I was sick of hearing myself play .Blah here have some notes .Not the way I want to play ,reactive instead of active . Sometimes I reach a state where I'm just watching my hands play . That's what I am trying to achieve .

  14. #13

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    The i chord is C#- dude.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by brwnhornet59
    The i chord is C#- dude.
    Yes. Please, please understand once again; if you use LCCOTO to try and figure out any of this, I shall be visiting you in the jazz loony bin. What you are being told here is correct.
    Last edited by paynow; 03-01-2012 at 02:37 PM.

  16. #15
    Maybe it's my lack of organization in my mind , but why is the C# not the vi chord ? as the cycle moves it's the same intervals .I probably don't look at a minor key the same way or correct if there is such a thing .A C#nat min is a C#nat minor so ....... I haven't delved in to minor harmony as in Melodic ,and Harmonic chords .How the cycle works in harmonic minor so I am lacking .
    I tend to look at things diatonically and throw in accidentals ,mostly for rhythmic purposes . Chord tones with with 2's 4's and 6's thrown in . Then those can be altered when I get better command of the sounds .
    I am trying to eliminate the thinking part and simplify my approach .
    I am not smart enough to think of all these things on the fly .
    I played a solo at rehearsal Sunday . The other guitar player said ,"That last 16 bars was perfect". I had noticed I was just watching my hands during the solo . I told him ",I honestly have no idea what I just played " . If it was perfect that's good enough ,thank you ". I don't know if I can repeat it.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by ottocat
    The progression is simple , C# min , A maj no 7 (caged cowboy chord) ,F#min7 ,G#maj b7 if you choose .
    The easiest way to explain this without looking at alterations is this.

    The tune is built from C# harmonic minor. These are the notes.
    C# D# E F# G# A B#

    Building the chords in 3rds from the scale will give you every chord you are using, with some interesting alterations that you may or may not have already seen or known. All of the chords you are using in that progression live in C# HM.

  18. #17

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    You're starting on C#m. That is your tonic chord in this case. You're then playing an A Maj chord and and an F#m7. So, we can say we're in the key of C# minor, the relative minor of E Major, also known as the natural minor and the Aeolian mode. Take E Major and start it from it's 6th degree, C#:

    C# D# E F# G# A B C#

    Now you get to G#7 (Ab7), which takes you back to the C# minor chord. That chord is spelled G#-B#-D#-F# (Ab-C-Eb-Gb). The one note you don't have in the natural minor scale to build that chord is C, so you raise the 7th degree a half step and you get C# Harmonic Minor:

    C# D# E F# G# A B#(C) C#

    Why do you do this? Because the G#m7 chord you would get from just using the notes in natural minor is a sort of boring cadence, the pull to the C#min chord is much stronger if you make it a dominant 7th chord. There's your "gravity." It just sounds better.

    The first three chords are in key of E, as mentioned, or in A if you feel like it (C# Phrygian), with a dominant 7th chord that functions as the V of the I minor.

    And even this is complicating matters far too much.

    EDIT:

    BH, I just saw your post above mine. I need to pay more attention. Otto, his explanation is even better. Absolutely.
    Last edited by paynow; 03-01-2012 at 03:40 PM.

  19. #18
    I can see the lesson as being , learn the triads for harmonic minor .Which I don't know how they stack .I am fairly adept at diatonic triads .
    The G# 7 is the V of C#min ........Doh! I knew that .
    The LCC query just happens to tie in to my studies at the moment .The number 4 the IV chord the #4 in Lydian keeps showing up in my life..................... it bugs me.................

  20. #19

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    You will see many #4's in jazz.

    Also why you are at it study melodic Minor and it's chord structures as well.

    Extend them out to the 13th. Do that with HM to. Learn to see what the tension notes do to each chord. Learn how to recognize what they are and where they came from at a glance. Many doors will open for you.

    Then most importantly see how the chords from mm and hm get substituted all of the time in Jazz, into the tunes built from the Major or Natural minor scale. It is everywhere. We call this modal interchange. Chords and their related scales from mm and hm are injected constantly. Same with h/w dim and whole tone. They all offer a different and very useful perspective if you can incorporate them into your playing.
    Last edited by brwnhornet59; 03-02-2012 at 02:33 PM.

  21. #20
    Thank all for the advice. Some of it I knew some of it I didn't.
    Learning MM and HM harmony is the best advice I've had in awhile .
    I've been trying to incorporate chord subs for a while .Knowing some things and not others.
    I can see my education as being lacking in that I know Maj scale harmony fairly well,and don't know HM or MM harmony . So I'm missing 2/3rds of the tools.
    The term "modal interchange" will help immensely.
    The ironic part of the above mentioned progression is ,that it was put together by a 30 year old kid that I play with.He just naturally puts chords together and writes only guided by his ear. He really doesn't know a lot of theory .He says I just did it because it sounds right.
    I'll talk to him about what he taught me .Writing a harmonic minor progression out of the blue kind of blows me away.There is a certain "genius" about the guy and a reason I met up with him and started a band.
    Cool when we can mutually educate each other .
    So again thank all of you
    Shalom
    OTTO