How long for you to develop a solo arrangement?

[swampguide]

Just wondering how long it takes people to develop their solo arrangements. I worked out one for A Time For Love from the Alone album by Bill Evans (A Time For Love.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage - comments welcome). It took me 2-3 days to transcribe it and then a few weeks of practice to get it down.

I know it depends on the difficulty of the piece, but in general how long does it take you to work up a new solo piece?

[Jazzaluk]

Nice work.

I don't think an arrangement should ever stay static.

I usually create an arrangement by first scetching it out with some shell chords and try to get the melody to sound correct. I can do that pretty fast, maybe a couple of hours. Then I think of the arrangement as three parts, bass, melody and inner lines and work out a more interesting arrangement. Depending on the tune, I can do this in a couple of days.

After that, the process goes on and on. Everytime I play it I hear opportunities to use different techniques like, melodic empelishments, counterpoint, single line fills, bass line, block chord fills etc. (I also shamelessly steal from other arrangements )

Over time the tune just opens up and it slowly feels like I can play it in a totally different way each time. This takes months for me.

I can hear many ways that you can improve on this arrangement, but it is a great starting point. Keep going.

[mr. beaumont]

Right now, an hour or two to get it where I like it, and a lifetime to keep it there.

I "arrange" kinda fluidly though...there's nothing written down, I want to have room to improvise (or to cover my tracks if I have a brain cramp.)

[msr13]

For me it depends on the complexity of the song. Some songs I get right away, like What's New and can come up with an arrangement I am happy with immediately. Others cause me all sorts of aggravation. You Go to My Head and But Not for Me are two songs I love but have not been able to come up with something I like. So those are doable, but not comfortable in the result. And, finally, there are certain songs, I wish I could arrange, let alone play-- Round Midnight, Giant Steps, Cherokee. They are beyond me.

[hot ford coupe]

For me it depends on the complexity of the song. Some songs I get right away, like What's New and can come up with an arrangement I am happy with immediately. Others cause me all sorts of aggravation. You Go to My Head and But Not for Me are two songs I love but have not been able to come up with something I like. So those are doable, but not comfortable in the result. And, finally, there are certain songs, I wish I could arrange, let alone play-- Round Midnight, Giant Steps, Cherokee. They are beyond me.

For me, it really depends on the song and the progression. I generally read the melody and get the chords under my fingers. Then over time, I'll fool around with subs, different fingerings, different keys until I get it where I like it. Then, to keep it interesting, I'll play around with the arrangement from time to time, try a few new things and rearrange as I see fit.

[Drumbler]

I get the song from the Real Book and then it takes about 10-15 minutes to play through it.

To really memorize it takes much longer of course. I don't write it down.

The general way I've been learning a new song is to practice just that song for a week. The next week I go through a repertoire of many songs for a week. Then a new song the next week.

So a new song every two weeks.

[swampguide]

Nice work.

I don't think an arrangement should ever stay static.

I usually create an arrangement by first scetching it out with some shell chords and try to get the melody to sound correct. I can do that pretty fast, maybe a couple of hours. Then I think of the arrangement as three parts, bass, melody and inner lines and work out a more interesting arrangement. Depending on the tune, I can do this in a couple of days.

After that, the process goes on and on. Everytime I play it I hear opportunities to use different techniques like, melodic empelishments, counterpoint, single line fills, bass line, block chord fills etc. (I also shamelessly steal from other arrangements )

Over time the tune just opens up and it slowly feels like I can play it in a totally different way each time. This takes months for me.

I can hear many ways that you can improve on this arrangement, but it is a great starting point. Keep going.

Thanks for the comments.

I find I cannot deviate much from my arrangement in the head section without messing up. Is this just a matter of practicing playing the head arrangement in different ways/places?

[swampguide]

Right now, an hour or two to get it where I like it, and a lifetime to keep it there.

I "arrange" kinda fluidly though...there's nothing written down, I want to have room to improvise (or to cover my tracks if I have a brain cramp.)

Do you vary your head arrangements much? I find I often mess up if I try to do this. And when I mess up the head it sounds terrible to me. If you have a "brain cramp" in the head do you just try and work around it?

BTW when I said transcribe I meant that I tried to learn and memorize the melody and (some) chord voicings from the recording (this was challenging for me in this case since it's a piano performance). I didn't write it out.

[mr. beaumont]

The big thing for me is not to think of them as arrangements...I'm playing the melody, it just happens to have some chords along with it.

If I think too much about the "arrangement" I'm not really learning the tune, and I'm dead in the water if I have a brain cramp. So I have a general idea of how I'm going to play the head--I may have a few "pet voicings" I know I'm going to use, but the whole thing is pretty fluid...

When I first started doing arrangements I planned everything for the head...i've3 definitely gotten away from that now, and my playing is much looser because of it.

In the past I thought I had to be the whole band...too much joe pass on the brain. Now, I imagine a rhythm section playing with me...really relaxes me...I use space now...

[bako]

Learning the music from multiple angles speeds the memorization process.

Some ways that a song can be known include:

1. the sound
2. the note names
3. the intervals (key centered)
4. the harmony
5. the intervals in relation to the harmony
6. the rhythm
7. the form
8. fingering shapes
9. the fret numbers
10. the lyrics (if any)

Also, the more the music is attainable with your present playing skills the quicker the realization.

[ronjazz]

Learn a tune in different keys, that will expand your arranging chops. And you will really know the tune.

[Jazzaluk]

Thanks for the comments.

I find I cannot deviate much from my arrangement in the head section without messing up. Is this just a matter of practicing playing the head arrangement in different ways/places?

Don't be too afraid of messing up. Its all part of the process and it will definitely tell your ear what doesn't work.

Changing keys is good advice. You should do this after you have tried to wring as much as you can out of what you already have. I think you are in D major which is giving you a nice dark sound and long string length, which is very cool.

There are lots of ways to work with what you have. Try just playing the melody with the bass notes from your chords. Look for opportunities to fill in bass line gaps and smooth it out so the two parts can stand alone. Then you can add chord where you feel the compliment the two lines.

Try arpeggiating the chords so they blend with or target a melody note ... or just substitute a chord with a single line.

You have some silent spots that you can fill with a turnaround or single line fills.

These are just some ways to take your arrangement apart and put together in another way, to build on what you are already hearing. The more you do it the easier and more spontaneous it gets. You will end up with lots of ideas and options to draw upon. (Don't forget to learn other tunes so you can transfer what you learn from this one.)

I like this tune, I think I'll give it a go myself.

[swampguide]

The big thing for me is not to think of them as arrangements...I'm playing the melody, it just happens to have some chords along with it.

If I think too much about the "arrangement" I'm not really learning the tune, and I'm dead in the water if I have a brain cramp. So I have a general idea of how I'm going to play the head--I may have a few "pet voicings" I know I'm going to use, but the whole thing is pretty fluid...

When I first started doing arrangements I planned everything for the head...i've3 definitely gotten away from that now, and my playing is much looser because of it.

In the past I thought I had to be the whole band...too much joe pass on the brain. Now, I imagine a rhythm section playing with me...really relaxes me...I use space now...

Interesting... When I doing started solo tunes I was much more sparse and then I started listening more to Joe Pass, Martin Taylor, etc. and felt I had to try and make a fuller sound. Which has probably lead to less flexibility in my head arrangements.

[swampguide]

Don't be too afraid of messing up. Its all part of the process and it will definitely tell your ear what doesn't work.

Changing keys is good advice. You should do this after you have tried to wring as much as you can out of what you already have. I think you are in D major which is giving you a nice dark sound and long string length, which is very cool.

There are lots of ways to work with what you have. Try just playing the melody with the bass notes from your chords. Look for opportunities to fill in bass line gaps and smooth it out so the two parts can stand alone. Then you can add chord where you feel the compliment the two lines.

Try arpeggiating the chords so they blend with or target a melody note ... or just substitute a chord with a single line.

You have some silent spots that you can fill with a turnaround or single line fills.

These are just some ways to take your arrangement apart and put together in another way, to build on what you are already hearing. The more you do it the easier and more spontaneous it gets. You will end up with lots of ideas and options to draw upon. (Don't forget to learn other tunes so you can transfer what you learn from this one.)

I like this tune, I think I'll give it a go myself.

Yes I did this tune in D major which is the (starting) key Bill Evans did it in on the Alone album. I didn't find it hard harmonically, though in trying to lift as many of the voicings and bass lines as I could from that recording it forced me to play things in ways that I don't normally.

It's a nice tune especially the way Bill plays it. I've also worked out an arrangement for Here's That Rainy Day which he does on the Alone album as well. He does it in B which is good because it's different that the usual F, Bb, Eb, Ab...

[mr. beaumont]

Interesting... When I doing started solo tunes I was much more sparse and then I started listening more to Joe Pass, Martin Taylor, etc. and felt I had to try and make a fuller sound. Which has probably lead to less flexibility in my head arrangements.

I can't really even listen to Martin Taylor...it's so "Look what I can do!" Joe at least swings, even when his playing gets busier than I usually like. Taylor...it's like magic...."yeah...wow, that is my card...uh...can I go now?"

I think the biggest thing is to be your own person...I know easier said than done (and this is coming from a bonafide Ed Bickert rip off artist)...the world's never gonna have another Joe Pass, and it sure as hell doesn't need any more Joe Pass wannabe's! If the space sounds good to you, leave it...

[Jazzaluk]

Yes I did this tune in D major which is the (starting) key Bill Evans did it in on the Alone album. I didn't find it hard harmonically, though in trying to lift as many of the voicings and bass lines as I could from that recording it forced me to play things in ways that I don't normally.

It's a nice tune especially the way Bill plays it. I've also worked out an arrangement for Here's That Rainy Day which he does on the Alone album as well. He does it in B which is good because it's different that the usual F, Bb, Eb, Ab...

That's a real challenge ... lifting Bill Evans and adapting it to the guitar. His voicings sound amazing. They are not too difficult to play on guitar but problems arise when the bass line is added. To get the sound requires allot of rootless chords on the guitar, and I seem to be missing a finger for the bass line. It would take allot of dedication to make it all work to the point where you could improvise on off the head.

You should checkout Stephen Anderson "remembering the rain", all solo guitar tributing Bill Evans. He seems to use the melody against the rootless voicings. Hardly any bass lines. Sounds really nice.

I tend to stick with voicings that lay nicely on the guitar so that I can see the bass, melody, and inner lines easier and move around more freely.

[morroben]

Interesting... When I doing started solo tunes I was much more sparse and then I started listening more to Joe Pass, Martin Taylor, etc. and felt I had to try and make a fuller sound. Which has probably lead to less flexibility in my head arrangements.

I think I made a similar mistake with Ted Greene. I'm still in the beginning stages of learning to play jazz and chord melody. When I started trying to come up with my own arrangements, I felt like every chord had to be a crazy TG type extension or substitution. A bit too lofty a goal for someone at my level. I started sounding better when I stuck closer to the lead sheet.
FWIW, I like your arrangement.

[swampguide]

I can't really even listen to Martin Taylor...it's so "Look what I can do!" Joe at least swings, even when his playing gets busier than I usually like. Taylor...it's like magic...."yeah...wow, that is my card...uh...can I go now?"

I think the biggest thing is to be your own person...I know easier said than done (and this is coming from a bonafide Ed Bickert rip off artist)...the world's never gonna have another Joe Pass, and it sure as hell doesn't need any more Joe Pass wannabe's! If the space sounds good to you, leave it...

Ha ha! Good "magic" analogy - I understand what you mean. I have Martin Taylor's Solo album and its good. On some tracks he just plays the melody for a few choruses and doesn't go too crazy. I admire his ability to do the bass, melody and harmony independently, not so much the notes/second ability.

I don't know that much about Ed Bickert. Any recordings (especially solo) that you'd recommend?

[swampguide]

That's a real challenge ... lifting Bill Evans and adapting it to the guitar. His voicings sound amazing. They are not too difficult to play on guitar but problems arise when the bass line is added. To get the sound requires allot of rootless chords on the guitar, and I seem to be missing a finger for the bass line. It would take allot of dedication to make it all work to the point where you could improvise on off the head.

You should checkout Stephen Anderson "remembering the rain", all solo guitar tributing Bill Evans. He seems to use the melody against the rootless voicings. Hardly any bass lines. Sounds really nice.

I tend to stick with voicings that lay nicely on the guitar so that I can see the bass, melody, and inner lines easier and move around more freely.

It was sure a challenge for me! Without Audacity to loop over sections I couldn't have done it . Even then I found it hard to hear what was going on a lot of the time. I just loved his version though, so I wanted to try.

Honestly if I think about it, I don't think I have many of his voicings in what I did. Maybe more the bass lines and fills that I could hear and sounded strong in his recording. I tried to get the right chords but I kept the roots in them for the most part. Perhaps somewhat "vanilla" to reference another thread . BTW the intro I did wasn't in his version - I just added it to make the song longer .

After I worked this tune out, I started to play around with some rootless voicings and stacked fourths. You're right it sounds great - I could see a whole galaxy of new sounds to explore there. I just don't know if I have time to go down that path...

Thanks for the Stephen Anderson tip.

If you do get around to doing a version of A Time For Love please post it.

[swampguide]

I think I made a similar mistake with Ted Greene. I'm still in the beginning stages of learning to play jazz and chord melody. When I started trying to come up with my own arrangements, I felt like every chord had to be a crazy TG type extension or substitution. A bit too lofty a goal for someone at my level. I started sounding better when I stuck closer to the lead sheet.
FWIW, I like your arrangement.

I guess one wants to strive but not overreach. Sometimes it's not immediately obvious to me when I'm trying something too far beyond my abilities or that just plain doesn't sound right (i.e. doesn't have good time, feeling, tone, etc). Recording my playing sometimes (often) makes it (brutally?) apparent and causes me to lower the bar or change things!

Anyway sometimes simple is good too. I think I read in Miles' bio that he asked/complained to Trane once "Why the f*** you play so many notes man?"

Thanks for the compliment and for listening.

[mr. beaumont]

Ha ha! Good "magic" analogy - I understand what you mean. I have Martin Taylor's Solo album and its good. On some tracks he just plays the melody for a few choruses and doesn't go too crazy. I admire his ability to do the bass, melody and harmony independently, not so much the notes/second ability.

I don't know that much about Ed Bickert. Any recordings (especially solo) that you'd recommend?

Oh man! You gotta discover Ed. The taste master!

Ed doesn't have any solo guitar albums, but he's a chord melody master. Check out "pure desmond" with paul desmond and "at the garden party" with don thompson to get you started.

[swampguide]

Oh man! You gotta discover Ed. The taste master!

Ed doesn't have any solo guitar albums, but he's a chord melody master. Check out "pure desmond" with paul desmond and "at the garden party" with don thompson to get you started.

It's worse - I'm Canadian - so ashamed! I do have some Lenny Breau albums though... Thanks for the tips.

PS - Sorry for Brian Adams and Celine Dionne

[mr. beaumont]

That's okay, you gave us Rush, poutine, Ed and boreale. Those make up for Celine.

[brwnhornet59]

That's okay, you gave us Rush, poutine, Ed and boreale. Those make up for Celine.

NICE~!!!!

[TH]

Hey first of all, all of you "arrangers" chord soloists- my deepest admiration. When I was getting into guitar, jazz or otherwise, it was solo chord melody that was the most magical.
Let me ask a question of you, see what you think. It seems that it is considered a notable accomplishment to get to the point where a guitarist can play chord solo. It also seems that pianists don't consider this such a big deal. Do you agree with me? If so, why is that?
I was at a gig of Jack Pezanelli and Sheryl Bailey and Jack was just joking around; he or Sheryl play the intros to the tunes they do. His arrangements are simply stunning and he makes them up on the fly. I asked him how he does that and he said "That's what you can do when you think like a pianist."
Oh, and I don't think there was a single drop 2 voicing the entire solo (or it was well disguised.)
David