When Sunny Gets Blue - Jazz Ballads by Jeff Arnold - Tune #3

[AllanAllen]

I don’t think that’s it.

Theres always been that dichotomy … Barney and Kenny Burrell are going for that big percussive sound.

Ed Bickert was playing much smaller shapes a very long time ago and he was hardly a jazz ed robot.

Also Joe Pass used looooaaaaads of little three string shapes too. Just depends on the situation and that’s probably the practical reality of it. Jim Hall with Bill Evans vs Jim Hall w Sonny Rollins.

In general, jazz guitar has evolved to be more punchy, spacious sort of thing than the driving rhythm guitar from the 50s. Gilad Hekselman literally has a whole course of stuff he calls “Big Chord.” They’re just used for a more textural sort of thing. Then you have Peter Bernstein and Ed Cherry and the like who use the big rhythm guitar shapes, mute and strum percussively, etc.

So stylistic changes more than anything

But when you watch their hands, you don't see an F7 as 5x354x kinda grip, it'll be the E bar or C shape. Just something I noticed watching those three guys hands. Joe Pass more than most, he's not doing jazz chord meme grips. Barney would do a few, I think he had a little more showmanship in him.

[Mick-7]

But when you watch their hands, you don't see an F7 as 5x354x kinda grip, it'll be the E bar or C shape. Just something I noticed watching those three guys hands. Joe Pass more than most, he's not doing jazz chord meme grips. Barney would do a few, I think he had a little more showmanship in him.

Not sure how that relates to barre chords as all of those chords would appear to barred. Your F7 example would be barred at the 3rd fret, but playing fingerstyle, you would not pluck the A or high E strings. Same thing with the other chords, bar the frets but only pluck the chord tones you want, not all of them.

When playing solo guitar, Kessel normally used barre chords in a piano like way, e.g., in the first few measures of Alfie, he'll play and hold a barre chord for an entire measure while playing melodies above it, the lush sustained sound of the barre chord simulates a string orchestra backing a soloist. But he would not harmonize single melody notes with 6 string barre chords as in this Arnold arrangement.

This is not solo guitar but it illustrates Peter's point (nice intro, I may have to steal it)

[pamosmusic]

But when you watch their hands, you don't see an F7 as 5x354x kinda grip, it'll be the E bar or C shape. Just something I noticed watching those three guys hands. Joe Pass more than most, he's not doing jazz chord meme grips. Barney would do a few, I think he had a little more showmanship in him.

I don't know about that. Joe's book has some serious finger busters. He's pretty up front about "only playing the easy stuff." But still ... he's Joe. He plays some stuff.

Check out his intro to Ella here:

[lawson-stone]

I don't know about that. Joe's book has some serious finger busters. He's pretty up front about "only playing the easy stuff." But still ... he's Joe. He plays some stuff.

Check out his intro to Ella here:

To me part of Joe Pass' genius is that he always seems to be close to whatever he needs to play. He doesn't play many "stretchy" chords because he navigates the fingerboard so deftly that the notes he wants are always within reach. He certainly can play those chords, and didn't hesitate to use them when he wanted to, but most of the time I notice he plays the guitar like a chess board, always several moves ahead, always with a direction, always matching the phrase of the moment to the unfolding of his ideas, and always in the spot he needs to be in to play it.

[pamosmusic]

To me part of Joe Pass' genius is that he always seems to be close to whatever he needs to play. He doesn't play many "stretchy" chords because he navigates the fingerboard so deftly that the notes he wants are always within reach. He certainly can play those chords, and didn't hesitate to use them when he wanted to, but most of the time I notice he plays the guitar like a chess board, always several moves ahead, always with a direction, always matching the phrase of the moment to the unfolding of his ideas, and always in the spot he needs to be in to play it.

Yeah for sure. I just think it's a little bit of amnesia-of-convenience to say that Joe and Barney Kessel were mostly using barre chords. I think in general most stuff is simpler than we tend to think. But we can also sometimes see what we want to see and trim out a lot of the subtlety and idiosyncrasy that these guys had going on also.

I'm not sure much of anyone uses the more miserable of those drop 3 inversions, but still ... even that Mickey Baker book has chords I still think are too hard for me to use on the regular.

[pamosmusic]

This is not solo guitar but it illustrates Peter's point (nice intro, I may have to steal it)

Incredible album.

[lawson-stone]

Yeah for sure. I just think it's a little bit of amnesia-of-convenience to say that Joe and Barney Kessel were mostly using barre chords. I think in general most stuff is simpler than we tend to think. But we can also sometimes see what we want to see and trim out a lot of the subtlety and idiosyncrasy that these guys had going on also.

I'm not sure much of anyone uses the more miserable of those drop 3 inversions, but still ... even that Mickey Baker book has chords I still think are too hard for me to use on the regular.

I never said they "mostly used barre chords" just that they used whatever they wanted for the ideas they were playing. If that meant a barre chord, they could grab it. Joe once wrote me in a letter that no note or chord is "hard." He said the guitar is just a typewriter and all ideas and words are pretty much the same to the typewriter. I felt that was a bit of a hyperbole on his part, but the thing I notice about him and Pat Metheny, among other great players is that they seem to have no technical barrier to communicating their ideas on the instrument. So for me, that means I should try to tackle even hard or uncomfortable chord shapes, though I confess I've made only modest progress on this.

[pamosmusic]

I never said they "mostly used barre chords"

Right, you were replying to a reply I’d made to Allen. So I was referring to where he said this:

You watch clips of Joe Pass, Kenny Burrell, and Barney Kessel, it looks like they use bar chords all the time.

and

But when you watch their hands, you don't see an F7 as 5x354x kinda grip, it'll be the E bar or C shape. Just something I noticed watching those three guys hands

And yes to this …

Joe once wrote me in a letter that no note or chord is "hard."

I remembered it as

He's pretty up front about "only playing the easy stuff."

But you’re probably right on the phrasing.

[lawson-stone]

You gotta be careful to to know when Joe Pass is pulling your leg. He said he only plays the easy stuff... but he also had a monster technique that made everything look effortless. I think the point he was making was that you can almost always find the note or phrase you need without stretching too far; master basic grips and play in position. Joe was an incredible position player. You watch him and he seldom stretches, jumps, or seems to strain for a note. He's always where he needs to be.

[pamosmusic]

You gotta be careful to to know when Joe Pass is pulling your leg. He said he only plays the easy stuff... but he also had a monster technique that made everything look effortless. I think the point he was making was that you can almost always find the note or phrase you need without stretching too far; master basic grips and play in position. Joe was an incredible position player. You watch him and he seldom stretches, jumps, or seems to strain for a note. He's always where he needs to be.

I think maybe there’s an echo in here …

I don't know about that. Joe's book has some serious finger busters. He's pretty up front about "only playing the easy stuff." But still ... he's Joe. He plays some stuff.

Check out his intro to Ella here:

[AllanAllen]

I agree with all these clarification counterpoints.

[Liarspoker]

Hey guys. Great to see the thread have some traction. I'm back in the world of wi-fi so will make up a new thread later today

Maybe The Nearness of You as requested by alpop?

Edit. I'll read all the posts that I missed when I have some more time too.

[lawson-stone]

I decided to try this tune with a backing track, and just cranked up iRealPro and muted the keyboards. I also wanted to play the L5ces on this one, and the amp is a Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb, using the direct line to record.
I actually FORGOT A CHORD one one measure, it's obvious... one more reason I have a day-job!

[alpop]

I decided to try this tune with a backing track, and just cranked up iRealPro and muted the keyboards. I also wanted to play the L5ces on this one, and the amp is a Fender Tone Master Twin Reverb, using the direct line to record.
I actually FORGOT A CHORD one one measure, it's obvious... one more reason I have a day-job!

That sounds so nice. An L5ces and a Twin. It doesn't get any better than that! Like driving a Cadillac on a fresh blacktop road.

[lawson-stone]

That sounds so nice. An L5ces and a Twin. It doesn't get any better than that! Like driving a Cadillac on fresh blacktop road.

Seriously I am so not deserving of this guitar but I never play better than when I'm playing it. Just playing chords sounds so smooth and sophisticated!

[alpop]

Seriously I am so not deserving of this guitar but I never play better than when I'm playing it. Just playing chords sounds so smooth and sophisticated!

You have earned the money to buy a beautiful instrument that inspires you to play your best.

You absolutely deserve that guitar by working on your music in the spare time allowed to you by having a career outside of music.

Players at all levels who love music deserve the best instrument they can get their hands on.

[lawson-stone]

You have earned the money to buy a beautiful instrument that inspires you to play your best.

You absolutely deserve that guitar by working on your music in the spare time allowed to you by having a career outside of music.

Players at all levels who love music deserve the best instrument they can get their hands on.

I do agree with that. I'm very fortunate and what I lack in talent I make for in love and devotion! I have to say also, I hadn't cared much for this tune before, but now I think it is one of my favorites.

BTW: is anyone else reminded of "Cry Me A River" when playin this tune? For some reason phrases of that one keep coming to mind.

[Mick-7]

That sounds so nice. An L5ces and a Twin. It doesn't get any better than that! Like driving a Cadillac on a fresh blacktop road.

Yes, lovely tone, I've been thinking I should sell my second rate (comparatively) guitars and get a really nice one like yours, it looks like a fairly new model?

Re: Lawson's comment that this tune reminds him of "Cry Me a River," parts of it reminded me of Coltrane's "Naima." In fact the Naima ending would sound good with it - it's an ascending series of notes harmonized by alternating major chords.

Applied to this tune in F Major it would be:

Notes/Chords: G (FM9, final chord of this tune) - A (BbM7) - B (FM7#11) - C (BbM9) - D (F6/9) - E (BbM7#11) - G (FM9) - with maybe the open A string used as a pedal point - basically Sunny takes an antidepressant.

P.S. - I nixed the idea of using this ending, it just sounds contrived.

[lawson-stone]

Yes, lovely tone, I've been thinking I should sell my second rate (comparatively) guitars and get a really nice one like yours, it looks like a fairly new model?

Re: Lawson's comment that this tune reminds him of "Cry Me a River," parts of it reminded me of Coltrane's "Naima." In fact the Naima ending would sound good with it - it's an ascending series of notes harmonized by alternating major chords.

Applied to this tune in F Major it would be:

Notes/Chords: G (FM9, final chord of this tune) - A (BbM7) - B (FM7#11) - C (BbM9) - D (F6/9) - E (BbM7#11) - G (FM9) - with maybe the open A string used as a pedal point - basically Sunny takes an antidepressant.

That is a possible plan-sell off the inexpensive instruments and save for something better. On the other hand, I get a ton of pleasure from my $600 Epiphone Broadway and if someone wanted an ES175 with one pickup, the Epiphone Zephyr Regent Reissue is perfect, again, well under $1000. Both of these I play a lot. Also, for a bit more, between the MiK Epi's and the Gibsons, you have the Japanese "lawsuit" era models. I have an Aria Pro II PE180 and it's basically a copy of a Gibson Super V-the L5ces body and the Super 400 neck. It's a laminate, so it has some "thunk" but it's also a sweet guitar. Kind of in the Tal Farlow range as far as tone.

I was able to get my L5ces way below market because there was some finish bleed around the binding that someone tried to buff out and buffed pretty hard before they realized the bleed was under the clear-coat. So it isn't a collector, not perfect. It also has a lot of finish checking, but from 6 feet away nobody notices, and it plays and sounds like an L5ces! Except I paid a Used Heritage price for it.

[Mick-7]

It's not that I totally dislike my guitars, it's just that each one has at least one thing I dislike about it, so I'd like to find guitar that suits me well. This will require that I play a lot of different guitars, which is a project now-a-days with all the music stores moving online.