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  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    One consistent message that I took away from the article was:

    1. Men are pigs.
    2. We need a revolution.
    No doubt we ARE heading for one...

    ... And as the French found out

    ... The Guillotine quickly develops a fondness for more blood

    And I don't know which WHO quote is more prescient...

    "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" or "Hope I die before I get old"
    measure with micrometer... mark with chalk... cut with axe

  2. #32
    Interesting, haven't heard that.

    Do you know approximately when this might occur and do you know some folks who might hake it happen?

  3. #33
    Actually one of the female leaders of the MeToo movement has herself just been accused of two alleged sexual abuse incidents, with details provided by at least one non-anonymous accuser.

    The parallels between this and the extremes of the French Revolution, where citizen insurrectionists, rose up to denounce each other in ideological fervor are quite striking.

  4. #34
    Let the big girls sing and everything will be right as rain...


  5. #35
    Is that Buddy Guy playing ? Now there is a great player...Jimi H owes HIM a few.

  6. #36
    That's Buddy.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol View Post
    Let the big girls sing and everything will be right as rain...


    Big Mama was able to break through a lot of barriers. She still got shafted over royalties to her "Ball and Chain" song.

    I wonder what she would have had to say about the OP's article? Were there people trying to hold her back? Was is a "man's world" back in 1965, or was it her imagination?

    Here is a wikipedia link, which you take for what it is worth, of course...


    Big Mama Thornton - Wikipedia

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    Big Mama was able to break through a lot of barriers. She still got shafted over royalties to her "Ball and Chain" song.

    I wonder what she would have had to say about the OP's article? Were there people trying to hold her back? Was is a "man's world" back in 1965, or was it her imagination?

    Here is a wikipedia link, which you take for what it is worth, of course...


    Big Mama Thornton - Wikipedia
    It's hard to believe how much she aged in just 6 years;


  9. #39
    What would we think if we were transported 34 years to the future, handed an article and then be asked to comment.
    Big Mama Thornton was a powerful, singular character and very much a product of her own times and experiences.
    She reacted forcefully to the events and interactions of her own life.

    She lived to 1984. It would be interesting to read her commentary on circumstance between 1970-1984.
    Many reference sources cited in the wiki, anyone able to recommend anything good reads, channeling her own
    words and spirit.

    Her version of Hound Dog is so much funkier than what Elvis came up with.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevebol View Post
    It's hard to believe how much she aged in just 6 years;

    And yet was still able and willing to sing her heart out. Amazing.
    Best regards, k

  11. #41
    I opened the article hoping,
    And oh, had I known 'bout the find.
    With no songs to hear
    No jazz crossed my mind -
    The jazz sounds those of whom are coping.
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  12. #42
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    That's a pretty sad looking panel, and I have to wonder how many people are even in the audience.

    Sexism is prevalent, and the enabler of harassment and worse. My wife tells me stories all the time about what she and other women put up with.

    I just think the jazz world doesn't have the power to give much voice to it, other than policing ourselves. A big part of the problem is that women are under-represented in jazz- but then again, even in protest music there were 10 Pete Seeger's for every Joan Baez.

  13. #43
    Drummer - Teri Lyne Carrington moderator
    Trumpet - Arnetta Johnson
    Bass - Esperanza Spalding
    Pianist - Vijay Iyer
    Journalist - Lara Pellegrinelli
    Longtime Activist/Professor - Angela Davis

    Three women musicians from slightly different generations. Vijay, I always find engaging.
    A journalist and Angela who can frame any political thought in historical context.

    Not sure what is sad about this panel?
    Who would you prefer to be on the panel?



  14. #44
    Anyone ever heard of Hazel Scott? So easily dismissed by historians. Must be because politics doesn't belong in jazz.
    For the curious:



    There are so many rewarding riches for those willing to look a little deeper than the convenience of historical mainstream.
    I find this woman truly inspiring. I consider her an integral part of the music and story of jazz, though to most she's invisible.

    David

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by JGinNJ View Post
    That's a pretty sad looking panel, and I have to wonder how many people are even in the audience.

    A big part of the problem is that women are under-represented in jazz- but then again, even in protest music there were 10 Pete Seeger's for every Joan Baez.
    Of course it's a sad looking panel. You can't PLAY THE VICTIM without appearing sad, now can you?

    BTW - I don't see that women are "underrepresented" in jazz when it comes to singers. Almost every singer's album reviewed in Downbeat each month - is of a female singer. Not underrepresented at all.

    So, is there some unstated standard that says there must be a 50/50 gender split in jazz instrumental music? And if it's not 50/50 what is it? And why? What is the rationale? Do we need to take revolutionary action to ensure that we have more "representation" from male jazz singers? If not, why not?

    I have noticed in my travels that women are underrepresented as: plumbers, framers, roofers, truck drivers, carpenters, carpet layers, furniture movers, auto mechanics, firefighters, police, soldiers... and then system administrators, DBAs, network engineers. Any theories as to why? I'm all ears.

    But whatever. If it's really a "problem", OK. Problems call for solutions. What's the solution(s)? Or, again, would we rather just complain so as to blow off steam while simultaneously putting a guilt trip on others?

  16. #46
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    By "sad looking", I meant they didn't look too happy to be there. Certainly they were all well qualified to speak on the subject.

    Of course, there are many fields that are male-dominated. And what often happens is they become a boys club, where women have a difficult time making inroads, are patronized ("man-splaining"), and not accepted.

    There are also many fields where women are better represented- medicine, science, accounting, education, PR, sales & marketing, social work.
    Why the gender divide? Socialization, for one- kids absorb gender roles early on. Some fields are more people or nurturing oriented.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    I think there is a societal nuance you are missing.

    When you are different, you tend to be under a microscope. Constant judgement reigns down on you. This makes you have to always be on guard or risk getting thrown into a stereotype. Its a complex nuance that many don't understand unless they experience it. It is a feeling of not being able to "be yourself."

    When she is playing with other women, at least she does not have to worry about that type of judgement/pressure. When playing with men, especially when you are beautiful, other dynamics come in, especially with men that have "a lot of testosterone."

    (Of course, let's be honest, women have their own barriers with each other that can be as pervasive, but that is another topic. There is probably enough sin to go around and everyone has to acknowledge their part in the dysfunction)
    Nice take on what I see 'going on' here related to what these fine women jazz musicians were sayings. There clearly is sexism in the music business but that also works in the favor of beautiful women. Would ES be as popular of a jazz artist outside of the jazz community if she wasn't a beautiful women? I'm not saying she isn't talented or skilled enough for the recognition and money she is being paid, but there are many others that are just as talented and skilled that have been playing at 'her level' for many years that don't have the support of a record label, get top billings at jazz festivals etc...

    I.e. it was because she was 'different' that help her get to a level few jazz musicians get to.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    Nice take on what I see 'going on' here related to what these fine women jazz musicians were sayings. There clearly is sexism in the music business but that also works in the favor of beautiful women. Would ES be as popular of a jazz artist outside of the jazz community if she wasn't a beautiful women? I'm not saying she isn't talented or skilled enough for the recognition and money she is being paid, but there are many others that are just as talented and skilled that have been playing at 'her level' for many years that don't have the support of a record label, get top billings at jazz festivals etc...

    I.e. it was because she was 'different' that help her get to a level few jazz musicians get to.
    Another great point. Being different can be exploited to one's own gain.

    Ah, but beauty is such a highly sought after commodity. When you are beautiful and talented, the world will beat a path to your door - and it does not matter if you are a man or woman, in my opinion. And a beautiful person has an advantage when it comes to getting what they want.

  19. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    Another great point. Being different can be exploited to one's own gain.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    When you are beautiful and talented, the world will beat a path to your door - and it does not matter if you are a man or woman, in my opinion. And a beautiful person has an advantage when it comes to getting what they want.
    Uh, beauty is fleeting. In high school the golden-haired jocks and chick magnets are now...fat and bald and selling used cars.

    The greasy-haired computer geeks who could never get a date are now...rich and retired.

  20. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff View Post
    Yes.



    Uh, beauty is fleeting. In high school the golden-haired jocks and chick magnets are now...fat and bald and selling used cars.

    The greasy-haired computer geeks who could never get a date are now...rich and retired.
    The other catch is that one has to maintain their beauty or get passed by for someone who has their beauty.

  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    The other catch is that one has to maintain their beauty or get passed by for someone who has their beauty.
    Royalties are for when one's beauty is no longer able to generate income.

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