Ibanez archtop with 0.010 Thomastik strings and rosewood bridge intonation issues

[Keru]

Hey guys, first post

So I recently bought a Ibanez GB10EM that came with 0.011 gauge strings.
I asked a luthier to make a new bone nut and to custom fit the floating wooden bridge to the top, aswell as to change the string gauge to 0.010 (Thomastik).

I'm now having issues with intonation even if the open string and 12th string harmonic match perfectly.

The saddle is fully rosewood and is now angling towards the nut (I dont know if this was done on purpose). I've seen people install TOM saddles to compensate for these intonation issues but I dont know if that's going to add more weight to the guitar ( I'm trying to keep it light as I can).

I dont know if the change to a lighter gauge is causing the problems and if the tension of the strings are enough to keep the bridge in place.

Would love to read your inputs on this

[DanielleOM]

I usually compare the fretted 12th fret note to the 12th fret harmonic. I do understand there are other methods. What do you find when you compare using that method. If I have to choose I find a 12th fretted note that is slightly flat is more tolerable than one that is sharp.

I will look forward to seeing what other responses you get. I normally find the TI strings to work well with archtop bridges from an intonation point of view.

[teeps]

The open string and 12th fret harmonic will always be in tune with each other. The 12th fret harmonic should also be in tune with the same string fretted at 12th fret. Is that the case?

[RJVB]

Would love to read your inputs on this

Yeah, can you post a picture or two of the bridge/saddle so we know what we're talking about? If you mean that the saddle is *leaning* towards the nut that is not normal and can indeed cause intonation problems (in addition to structural ones if you let it perdure).

I just replaced the ebony bridge + saddle on my Loar with a bridge/saddle assembly that has a bone insert (I'm guessing you're using something comparable). I use much heavier strings, but intonation is spot-on despite the high action and relief that I dialed in. I use much heavier strings than you, but a priori it should be possible to adjust the saddle position so extra-lights intonate correctly too.

One more remark: such light strings will go sharp more easily than heavier ones by just pressing too hard or pulling them sideways. I assume you took that into account (?).

[Bebop Tom]

Do those strings have an unwound third? That could be a problem with a wooden saddle made for a wound third set.

[RJVB]

Ah, yes - and the reverse can be true too; sets with a wound 3rd intonate a lot better on saddles that have obvious micro-compensation with the contact point for the 1st and 3rd strings at the same distance from the nut (with the saddle parallel to the nut).

[Keru]

Heeey, was on a trip this past weekend sorry for not replying sooner.

The last 3 strings (E,A,D) are ever so slighty sharper in the 12th fret, while the first 3 (G,B,e) are in tune.

So I would have to move the bridge only in the bass side? seems kinda hard to do, especially if you dont want the treble side to change at all.

Here are some photos of the nut and bridge, also an overall of the guitar. I asked to change the pickguard holder for a Gibson one - the stock one pierced trough my leg sometimes when playing while sitting.

The Thomastik strings has a Wound G.

I feel that the bridge pickup has a slight angle towards the pickguard, because of this change of the holder, it make the pickguard much lower that with the stock holder.

Also CTS pots. Because

Thanks

[sgosnell]

Those nut slots look to be very high. That will adversely affect intonation and playability. The strings should come off the nut at near the same height as the first fret, and that looks to be near twice the string diameter for the bass E string, and even more for the treble side. It may be parallax, but both views seem to show strings that are much too high above the fretboard at the nut. I think you need a decent setup on the guitar. You will never find a guitar straight from the factory with satisfactory nut slots.

[Keru]

Those nut slots look to be very high. That will adversely affect intonation and playability. The strings should come off the nut at near the same height as the first fret, and that looks to be near twice the string diameter for the bass E string, and even more for the treble side. It may be parallax, but both views seem to show strings that are much too high above the fretboard at the nut. I think you need a decent setup on the guitar. You will never find a guitar straight from the factory with satisfactory nut slots.

This nut was made from bone by the luthier. So your opinion is to make him review the nut? How can I be sure? When I get home I'll check if the notes on the first fret are in tune - I think that would be a symptom of a "high" nut?

Thank for the reply

[RJVB]

The action at the nut does look a little high but it's hard to tell given the angle and without knowing how high your frets are. 2 ways to check the nut slot height and its effect on intonation:
1) check the intonation at the 1st, 2nd and 3rd fret with the open string in tune and using a precise tuner. Too high nut slots mean those frets will intonate sharp, something you'll probably hear easily enough at the 2nd fret of the 5th, 4th and 3rd strings.
2) hold down a string at the 3rd fret and check the clearance between it and the top of the 1st fret. It should be really low, low enough that you hear just a faint "ping" when you tap the string down onto the fret.

But action at the nut usually has very little effect on the intonation at the 12th fret, where your problem lies from what I understand. Does the intonation error become worse when you go higher? If so, an easy thing you can try yourself is to use the thumbwheel on the bass side to lower the saddle little by little (keep track of how much you turn that wheel), until you start to get fret buzz. Check the intonation. If improved, raise the saddle just enough to get rid of the fret buzz during normal playing. If not, you can just as well return it to the original height. And then you'll have to pivot the bridge a bit around the point under the 1st string's slot, moving the bass end backwards. Drop the tension of at least the wound strings for that a bit to make it easier. You can check the intonation with the 6th string at that lower tension until it seems OK, then retune and re-check.

There's a small chance that some strings will intonate flat in your case, when the 2 E strings intonate correctly. That's usually less noticeable than strings that intonate sharp: we hear it less well (aka somewhat flat notes stand out less than somewhat sharp ones) plus it's easier to compensate by pushing a bit harder or "bending" just as much as necessary.

[sgosnell]

The intonation can be set at the 12th fret however high the nut slots are. But the notes at other frets, especially the ones nearer the nut, will be out of tune. As I said, the issue might be due to parallax, and the slots may be better made than they look in the photos. It's very difficult to judge from photos only. The main issue for me with high nut slots is that it's hard to play and to get action that's low enough for my taste.

The bridge can be moved on one end only, but it does require finesse. It usually takes me a few adjustments to get mine set right. You should also know that it's difficult, if even possible, to get all the strings to intonate perfectly at the 12th fret. The lower the action, the easier it is for me. I tend to set the bridge so that the A and B strings intonate, and the rest do what they do. Some prefer to intonate the outside E strings, but I find the rest of the strings are marginally closer when the A and B are correct. It is difficult to adjust the bridge when the strings are at pitch, but it is possible. A common method is to loosen all the strings except the two used to set the intonation, because it's much easier to move the bridge with only two strings at tension.

[RJVB]

The intonation can be set at the 12th fret however high the nut slots are. But the notes at other frets, especially the ones nearer the nut, will be out of tune.

Of course, and it wasn't my intention to contradict you on this. But the OP only mentions a slight intonation problem at the 12th fret on the lower strings, nothing that makes me think of a problem at the nut.

But since we're going there ... sometimes you need to compensate at the nut. That can be because of a single bad string, or because the compensation of the saddle isn't appropriate for the strings you use (a common example would be using a plain G with a saddle compensated for a wound G).
Need for nut compensation (of the easier, DIY type) can announce itself through sharp intonation at intermediate frets like the 5th when then open string is in tune and intonation at the 12th fret approximately correct (the effect of an overly high nut action is usually negligible at the 5th). Plus, you can tune the string at the 5th fret and find that the open string then becomes flat by about as many cents as the 5th was sharp. Then you can wedge something under the string, close to or against the nut: that's exactly like adding a fret with a capo at that location. I used to have a guitar that was only supportable with that kind of compensation on the 2nd and 3rd strings, so I made 2 bone "frets" for it (bamboo turns out to work too, for nylon strings at least).
Compensation at the nut and saddle can really make a difference for intonation over the entire scale length!

(But given the OP's choice of words it seems unlikely the situation warrants it ... unless of course his ears and requirements are particularly strict.)

[sgosnell]

I was addressing the OP. I have no disagreement with what you posted. But if an individual string is so far out that it needs that much compensation, something is wrong. The easiest thing to try is to replace the string. Nylon strings have more issues than steel strings, IME.

[RJVB]

But if an individual string is so far out that it needs that much compensation, something is wrong.

Yes, but "that much" can be "only" 5 cents (and compensating that can be done by slipping the equivalent of a piece of toothpick under the string and against the nut).
The "nylon" strings I use can't be bought as singles, so replacing a single one isn't something I do too easily esp. when it's new and turns out not to be as true as you'd expect (something directly related to how the extrusion process they're made with). Sometimes reinstalling them the other way round helps, too - try that with a steel string

[pauln]

The side view of the bridge shows it angled to the body more than makes me comfortable; the direction of the down force from the strings aligns approximately with the bisection of the strings' break angle over the bridge... that down force direction and the vertical structure of the bridge should be close to coincident, but what shows is that this force direction is angled pretty close to tipping the bridge over.

Also, are the pickups really as super close to the strings as it appears in the same photo?

I can't tell anything from the nut pictures, I like a pretty high action.

[RJVB]

The side view of the bridge shows it angled to the body more than makes me comfortable

Me too. I considered making the suggestion to turn the bridge 180° (not the saddle of course) because I'd feel better personally with the lean in the opposite direction. Didn't because that's mostly based on being used to violin and cello bridges (where only the front side would appear to lean); the break angle is of course even sharper on the other side.

OP: your post suggests that the luthier just improved the fit of the existing bridge, or did you in fact ask him to make a new one? In the latter case (or even when he ordered an off-the-shelf item) he didn't do a very confidence-inspiring job on this...

[SoftwareGuy]

I agree with the other posts that the way the bridge is not perpendicular to the top is questionable.

I have two guitars with wooden bridges and they are really fussy about what strings are correctly intoned. I have made the mistake of experimenting with different strings only to find the intonation off.

Comments about a wound 3rd are also relevant.

[teeps]

Loosen strings and rotate the bridge base. The bridge top seems correctly orientated.

[pingu]

1334366[/URL]]I agree with the other posts that the way the bridge is not perpendicular to the top is questionable.

I have two guitars with wooden bridges and they are really fussy about what strings are correctly intoned. I have made the mistake of experimenting with different strings only to find the intonation off.

Comments about a wound 3rd are also relevant.

your guitar is very similar to mine
Ibz AF whatever
they want at least 11’s in my experience (they don’t intonate great
with 10’s)
12 even better
13 even betterer

[Keru]

Hey Guys,

thank you so much for the suggestions, I'm learning a lot!

The notes on the first frets are slightly sharper on some strings. I think I need the luthier to review the nut.

Also, are the pickups really as super close to the strings as it appears in the same photo?

Yes and its only at the bass side, in a slight down angle towards the treble side. With the new pickguard holder, the luthier had to keep the pickguard considerably closer to the body, making the pickup angle a little. Need to fix that aswell. The bridge pickup just dosent have much juice, I think its because of that.

your post suggests that the luthier just improved the fit of the existing bridge, or did you in fact ask him to make a new one? In the latter case (or even when he ordered an off-the-shelf item) he didn't do a very confidence-inspiring job on this...

I asked him just to adjust the fit to the body. He ended up changing the break angle. I dont know it it was un purpose, but I didnt ask for him to do it.

I considered making the suggestion to turn the bridge 180°

Wouldnt that screw up the fitting that was made as a result of sanding the base?

Comments about a wound 3rd are also relevant.

These are in fact 0.10 String set, but the 3rd string is wound. (Thomastik JS10)

your guitar is very similar to mine
Ibz AF whatever
they want at least 11’s in my experience (they don’t intonate great
with 10’s)
12 even better
13 even betterer

The luthier told me the wooden bridge was prepared for 0.9 sets up to 0.12 with no issues. What would be an explanation for that gauge intonation issues? I read somewhere that lighter gauges wont "drive" the top as much, but that always seemed to be an acoustic volume problem, and not a intonation problem.

Also I checked with the lowest pressure I could do with my fingertips on a note up until I got a little bit of buzz and it was still kinda sharp

[teeps]

Would love to read your inputs on this

The actual point (intonation issues) can not really be diagnosed without having a description of how and where on the fretboard the issue is. In my experience it is not more difficult to have an OK intonation on Ibanez Artcores than on popular solid bodied guitars also with thin strings.

Wouldnt that screw up the fitting that was made as a result of sanding the base?

Yes, probably, if the sanding was done with the bridge in this slanted position. If you break a leg and the doctors install one foot pointing backwards, but otherwise did a perfect job ... what would you do?
Or if a luthier installed replaced a bracket to support the pickguard having as result that the pickguard - which also determines the position of the the bridge pickup - is angled so the pickup is in a (non-intended) position and the pickguard probably being stressed, but did otherwise did an OK job ... what would you do?

[pingu]

the bridge should approx bisect the break angle of the strings over the bridge

yours is way off ….

also you say the first fret(s ?) are
playing sharp
so the nut is also fitted wrong

oh dear
if it was me I’d get another luthier
or preferably just ‘do it yourself’

look at it as a learning process
and part of the process of making
a nice sound on the guitar

these guitars with a wooden saddle intonate way better with
heavier strings ….

9’s on this guitar ? your luthier is
crazy imo

[RJVB]

the bridge should approx bisect the break angle of the strings over the bridge

Are you implying it should actually lean backwards a bit?

[pingu]

i believe the string pressure should
vector down through
the bridge screws to the top

so yes the bridge could be slightly leaning towards the tailpiece

i also think perpendicular to the top is fine ….

but definitely not leaning towards the neck like the OP’s one does



uggh
for myself I would aim to bisect the break angle

deffo worth trying reversing the bridge base (but keep the saddle
orientation as is of course)

[Keru]

the bridge should approx bisect the break angle of the strings over the bridge


these guitars with a wooden saddle intonate way better with
heavier strings ….

9’s on this guitar ? your luthier is
crazy imo

Would a T-O-M Saddle fix this? Would like to keep the 0.10 gauge
----

I'll go to the luthier tomorow and ask about all this. The nut, the wooden bridge and the pickguard height which is wrong because of the new pickguard bracket.

Also, and this is kinda huge red flag for me...the guitar has a lot of scratches in the finish near the bridge from him trying to sand it to the body. He didnt even brought that up in the conversation. He just let me walk out of his studio in the hopes that I wouldnt see that...


Had the guitar for 2 weeks before taking it to him for 2 times now