The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi
    I recently changed tailpieces on this guitar and since then I had more buzzing than before and ive had to raise the action higher. I never considered that the top may have sunk over the year that ive owned it so just wanted to see what other people think.
    It plays fine now but if I decide to sell it ill need to confirm if the top has sunk at all. Any opinions would be much appreciated cheers
    Attached Images Attached Images Hi does the top on this look sunk please :)-img_1841-jpg Hi does the top on this look sunk please :)-img_1843-jpg Hi does the top on this look sunk please :)-img_1844-jpg Hi does the top on this look sunk please :)-img_1846-jpg 

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  3. #2

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    Maybe but how does the base of the bridge fit? If it is sitting on top curve and looks like it fits correctly I would say no. Give us an update. Run a piece of paper under all the edges.

  4. #3
    Hi]thanks so much for the comment. the bridge fits exactly as it should and I can't get any paper under it anywhere here is a pic. Thanks for your time its much appreciated thanks.
    Attached Images Attached Images Hi does the top on this look sunk please :)-img_1847-jpg 

  5. #4

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    As the deacon said, maybe, but not much if any. If the bridge fits the top, and both sides of the f holes are at about the same height, I would think not. You can't really go by the shape of the top, because it could be carved (or formed) into somewhat complex shapes.

  6. #5

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    It looks well within normal parameters to me. Not easy to tell with the light in the photos but tops, especially archtop plates change, a lot, sometimes, and the bottom line is playability. Use the bridge height adjusters, and get the right playing height. If it's stable as we pass through spring, I'd say don't sweat it.
    It IS spring and the top may have been due for an adjustment around now anyway. By the height of the saddle in your photos, I'd say you're solid.

  7. #6
    Hi, Thanks so much for the comments im very grateful. I just got a bit worried as ive done a lot of part switching over the last few months and wondered if I had caused the top to sink. Its something ill keep my eye on over the next few months but thanks for your help and advice, cheers and much appreciated thanks

  8. #7

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    For a solid spruce top to sink would be unusual and the whole top would probably be every thin. Then it would not necessarily sink right where the bridge sits. This happens on laminated tops because the laminations do not have the Integrity of solid spruce. Another possibility is that simply due to change in humidity and temperature things can move. If this were my guitar this is what I would do just to give myself complete assurance.

    1) Get a straight edge and determine exactly how much relief you have in the neck right now.
    2. Measure the height at the bridge from the top of the guitar to the point the strings break over the saddle right in the middle of the saddle d-g strings.
    3)Then take all the tension off the neck by loosening the strings completely and tape the bridge in place just so it does not move use masking tape.
    4) Now measure the relief in the neck and measure again the distance from top of guitar to bridge.
    5.) Leave all the tension off the neck for a period of at least 24 hours and do not disturb the guitar.
    6.) After 24 hours retune the guitar and take measurements an access playability and action but do not make any adjustments.
    7.) Take note of how the guitar plays and if any buzzing on frets playing all over guitar.
    8.) Don't make any adjustments but leave the guitar that way for a few hours and then come back and check.

    The reasoning behind all this is to see what happens given reset period for the guitar. The key is that you cannot guess you need as accurate of measurements as possible. Use a machinist ruler that is marked off is 1/64's. For the action you should use a straightedge metal ruler and feeler gauges.

    A a well-made and stable guitar that is put together correctly doing all this will change nothing of any significance. Things will not move enough to cause any changes and the guitar has memory built into its make up. It should return to damn near exactly what was before. It is possible to have some slight change, but experience will tell if a big change or something bigger is happening. In that case who knows? Sometimes guitar tops move a bit over time but not necessarily that they are sinking forever like the Titanic.

  9. #8

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    I would think significant sinking of the top would require the saddle to be higher. That's a very low adjustment, from the pictures, and I would be surprised to find a sunken top with such a low saddle adjustment. Unless it needs a neck reset, which is a separate issue. But without actually seeing the guitar, no guarantees.

  10. #9

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    Looks perfectly fine to me, inner and outer edges of the f holes line up.
    Usually w top sink the inner edge of the f hole would be lower than outer.

  11. #10

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    The guitar is from Daniel Slaman, as far as I can see. IMO, the easiest way would be sending the pics to him and ask him for an assessment.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    For a solid spruce top to sink would be unusual and the whole top would probably be every thin. Then it would not necessarily sink right where the bridge sits. This happens on laminated tops because the laminations do not have the Integrity of solid spruce.
    That's interesting to me. I would have expected that a well designed laminated plate would be more dimensionally stable than a solid plate. Orienting the grain of the laminations at angles to each other would seem to make the composite sheet more resistant to deformation because of the functional mesh of grains.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    That's interesting to me. I would have expected that a well designed laminated plate would be more dimensionally stable than a solid plate. Orienting the grain of the laminations at angles to each other would seem to make the composite sheet more resistant to deformation because of the functional mesh of grains.
    You need to take into consideration the materials. You can take wood pulp, laminate it and you'd still have papier mache. Laminates are made of plies of thin wood veneer thickness sheets, pressed or heat bent to a shape. There is an amalgamate integrity but to be thin enough to not impede the vibration of the string's energy, they need to be thin and not very many. This means there's a pretty high glue to wood ratio and the wood is not thick enough to have integrity on its own.
    A solid top, on the other hand has grain that has grown in only one orientation, with winter and summer growth forming tight growth rings of very light wood alternating with very dense winter growth. These are fibres that are designed to support the weight of entire tree and still be flexible enough to absorb gale force winds. A good AAA grade top probably came from an enormous slow growing tree that had to grow up a shaft of forest light before it could even expend energy on leaves. That's why the best spruce grew in dense first growth forest and has hundreds of free trunk before it reaches the canopy.
    When you build a top on the quarter, (lots of cross silk), you take the best weight bearing slice and orientation of a tree designed to shoot to the forest roof. That's dense and has a strength to weight ratio of steel. Compare that with pulp wood sliced thin and joined together held into one piece with glue.
    But a good builder also knows how to put an efficient arch into a piece of spruce. It's like a bridge over a river, minimum amount of material+good engineering=great strength by designing to the edge of the parameters.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heybopper
    Hi, Thanks so much for the comments im very grateful. I just got a bit worried as ive done a lot of part switching over the last few months and wondered if I had caused the top to sink. Its something ill keep my eye on over the next few months but thanks for your help and advice, cheers and much appreciated thanks
    Nearly everyone thinks their Archtop has sunk when they look at the bridge. It's somewhat of an optical illusion.
    That top can and likely will sink to some degree over time, depending on several factors. Some sinkage isn't an issue as long as the guitar sound and plays well.
    I think one of the main causes, is cases that are a fraction too shallow (even when made for the guitar); pushing down on the bridge over time.

    A good way to tell as mentioned prior, is by looking across the Fholes but often the little wings/tabs can turn up a bit and make it look like the top has sunk. Someone else's opinion on that would be appreciated.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Nearly everyone thinks their Archtop has sunk when they look at the bridge. It's somewhat of an optical illusion.
    That top can and likely will sink to some degree over time, depending on several factors. Some sinkage isn't an issue as long as the guitar sound and plays well.
    I think one of the main causes, is cases that are a fraction too shallow (even when made for the guitar); pushing down on the bridge over time.

    A good way to tell as mentioned prior, is by looking across the Fholes but often the little wings/tabs can turn up a bit and make it look like the top has sunk. Someone else's opinion on that would be appreciated.
    I don't agree that a top will likely sink over time. That does not make sense that it is a given. Straight grain solid spruce does not normally sink.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    I don't agree that a top will likely sink over time. That does not make sense that it is a given. Straight grain solid spruce does not normally sink.
    The majority of vintage guitars I’ve seen/had have it to some degree.

    I didn’t say all but could have worded better.

    As usual lol

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    For a solid spruce top to sink would be unusual and the whole top would probably be every thin. Then it would not necessarily sink right where the bridge sits. This happens on laminated tops because the laminations do not have the Integrity of solid spruce.
    Interesting, did not know that, I would have thought the opposite.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound
    Interesting, did not know that, I would have thought the opposite.
    Woody, spruce is quite tough and straight grain is why it is used for tops. Much better than thin pieces of almost paper machete. The only thing is spruce and straight grain wood like that can split and crack along the grain easier. Plywood does not. However bracing and cleats can fix it and even make it stronger overall.

    Everyone had this image of carved top spruce guitars being fragile. Not so! Flattops yes they can be fragile. Thin tops and light bracing. String tension directly pull up the top.

    I don’t like flattop guitars for sound and for design. I have never bought one ever to play. No thanks, the Archop is the “One”.