floating saddle + tailpiece = less clattery low strings?

[RJVB]

We've had a number of discussions about what's easier with a traditional pin/tie bridge or with floating bridge + separate tailpiece - overall playability, vibrato, bends, and possibly some things I forget.

I've come to wonder if there isn't a difference on another aspect: the ease with which the lowest strings will clatter against the fretboard when you play the lowest notes on those strings with a strong thumb (or pick) rest stroke.

I taught myself to play on my 635mm resonator converted to nylon strings following instructional videos from the likes of Justin Johnson and Doug Macleod, the residu of a couple of lute lessons long ago and a sound ideal that is partly based on the theorbo.

That resonator needs high tension strings due to its short scale length but it has a nicely low action and basically only clatters when I want it to. Almost every fixed-bridge steel and nylon-string guitar I've had requires uncommongly high action and/or relief to avoid clatter. Including my new Cabaret which has the same strings and 6th string action heights at nut and 12th fret as my resonator, but a 647.7 (25.5") scale length. You'd guess the higher tension would make it less prone to the problem, but the opposite is true, even with really fat custom-made 6th string (0.059" gauge, probably around 8.5kg tension). From what I can tell this string hits the 5th fret, and I don't even have to dig in deep for that.

So either the ease of clatter increases with scale length or there's some effect from the string section between saddle and tailpiece that keeps the vibration amplitude and/or plane in check. Or both.

Thoughts?

[sgosnell]

Your E and A strings hit each other? That's something I've never seen, never even thought of. Longer strings have more room for excursion, regardless of tension. But I can't imagine strings hitting each other unless they're really, really close together or so thin that they don't have much tension. IME the cause of 'clatter' is usually fret slap, where the string hits the next fret up, or sometimes more frets. But I haven't played your guitar, so what do I know.

How are you plucking the strings? If you lift the string and release it downward, it's going to slap the frets, almost unavoidably. Plucking sideways is the only way I know of to avoid that.

[RJVB]

Oops, my bad. I meant 5th FRET, not string

Actually, I can indeed have "string slap" on my otherwise mostly buzz-free resonator, and that's indeed because the string in question is just a bit too slack and/or flexible combined with steel-string string spacing.

What I'm talking about here is fret slap; I call it clatter because that's what it sounds like. (The string slap I get is usually only a single slap unless I really whack all 3 strings).

Interestingly, plucking vertically to get a snap will get me that: a single, controlled slap. The worst clatter happens when I use a thumb rest stroke, where the thumb stops on the A string (or plucks it in the same movement). I'm in the camp that considers those kind of strokes the most controlled, but they do impart a vertical component. Trying to set the string in vibration parallel to the fretboard (almost flat on the Cabaret) indeed gives a slightly cleaner sound but the vibration plane does rotate so it's almost impossible to avoid the clatter even then.
EDIT: plucking with "virtual rest strokes" as if playing bass also gives a cleaner sound, but it isn't exactly feasible unless I am actually playing a bass line and nothing else

The saddle has a much more pronounced radius than the fretboard btw; this may be a reason why the vibration plane rotates.

[sgosnell]

It's nearly impossible to pluck so that the string vibrates in only one direction. The only solution I know to stop fret slap (or buzz,whatever you call it) is to raise the action. Where to compromise between clean notes and playability is something only you can decide. To get the lowest possible action without any clatter, as you describe it, you need perfectly cut nut slots, perfectly flat frets, and a straight neck, IMO. Once you get those, it's just a matter of adjusting the saddle height to your taste. Depending on where you play and how, you may benefit from some relief in the neck. The harder you pluck, the more relief you need, but that actually increases the chance of fret buzz on the highest frets, because the action gets lower up there with increasing relief. It's all a compromise of some sort.

[RJVB]

Well, yes, and it probably doesn't help that I don't use nails AND use the same technique on steel strings too.

But I've now had 3 fixed-bridge guitars that all showed the same problem to some extent, and 2 floating bridge ones that don't have it (or much less). That really suggests something might be going on with the part of the string between saddle and tailpiece!

[RJVB]

It's nearly impossible to pluck so that the string vibrates in only one direction.

After checking with Eastman, I put on a 0.059" low E classical string, custom-made by Pyramid. It gives about 8.2kg tuned to E on a 635mm scale length, more on the Cabaret with its 647.7mm. I'd hope this would be a good temporary solution but interestingly it is a bit more prone to fret clatter than the string I had on before (Galli Aurum, rated just under 7kg, presumably for 650mm).

On a hunch I checked the winding direction. On the Galli, it's oriented top-left-to-bottom-right, on the Pyramid the opposite (clever because that's more comfortable for the thumb!). I wonder if this has an effect on how the vibration plane changes, interacting with the saddle's curvature!

[sgosnell]

I've never considered the direction of the windings. I just always sort of assumed they were all the same. Now you'll have me going down yet another rabbit hole. I may never see daylight again.

[RJVB]

One classical string brand (Aranjuez) actually used the direction of the windings in their sales pitch, specifically how the fact that the 6th string used the opposite direction as the 5th and 4th strings reduced string noise. I realised only recently that they must have been talking about RH finger noises.

I have no idea if this direction has anything to do with the rotation of the string's vibration plane but it seems plausible (unless that phenomenon is caused purely by Coriolis effects... another rabbit hole for you ... to climb out through )