Would you trust a rather unknown luthier who ...

[John A.]

The L48 has such a top?! I love the sound of that guitar for fingerpicking - there is one FS in Lithuania that I'd probably have ordered already if I weren't determined on getting a nylon-stringer (and a little more certain about how I'd get along with its neck profile).

Some are pressed spruce and some are maple laminate. From what I've read there are also some here and there with carved spruce that are kind of mish-moshes or l-48's and l-50's. Regardless, a lot of money for a guitar that doesn't make much noise IMO, but others obviously disagree.

EDIT: I suppose the sound will depend on how good the top would sound in a flat-top ... but if a laminate top sounds better after having been arched one might almost expect this to be the case with a solid top too, no?

I don't think so. Carving a top into an arched shape out of a thick, solid, blank is one thing. Slicing a thin sheet of wood off a solid blank and pressing that into an arched shape is another. They do very different things to the wood fibers and resonant property of the final product. For the most part, pressed-top guitars don't have nearly as much acoustic voice a carved tops, and both sound different from flattops. Better or worse is subjective.

[RJVB]

Thanks, but that's essentially an electric guitar, if I were to take that as a reference I might end up thinking that just a plank would make a great "modern classical" too.

Basically that's what I'm looking for, really. I don't appreciate the sound of classical guitars but do find myself playing their kind of repertoire.

Here's an instrument from a French builder I'm talking with, just a bit (too much) over my budget for comfort, sadly:

If I match what he told me to his nomenclature correctly, this has a cedar top that's pre-stressed, so domed by glueing onto a curved braces. Longitudinal onces inspired by those found in Selmer/gypsy guitars. The B&S are a linen-based composite of his own design. I might be able to try one of in a few weeks.

This exchange and parallel exchanges with a few luthiers have made me considering other approaches too. Doming a top and back via the bracing (and sides I presume) is common if not standard procedure in classical guitars; for the back it is also quite common in jumbos IIUC. So, what if
- we take a common crossover shape, OM or grand auditorium
- give it a top and back of classical guitar thickness and domed in just a bit more pronounced (archtop-like) fashion, using an appropriate bracing structure
- use an elevated or even floating fingerboard so the saddle can be higher
- if structurally feasible, give it f-holes or cat-eyes

That would still be an experimental instrument but much closer to familiar terrain (and thus easier to execute by a luthier who has little or no experience with archtop building). The design would sit somewhere between existing nylon-string archtops and classical guitars. I know that doesn't guarantee that the sound will be on that continuum too but I would hope that it should have at least some of the characteristics I'm looking for?

BTW, I hear Daniel Slaman is scaling down his activity...

[JWMandy]

In some respects, I find that the point of a custom build is customizing an instrument to YOUR physical needs, but maybe that's 'cause I tend to prefer to play short scale guitars built to high standards (as opposed to "meant for kids under 10"). Otherwise, off the shelf is a better value for purchase and resale BUT may not be as well adapted to you as a custom project might be. I've had 2 classical guitars built by a reputable builder and would recommend you stick to someone known to be able to produce a quality sound - hopefully one you've heard built close to what you're after. I was fortunate in that way.... and still have one of them 10 years later (the 2nd was a refinement of the 1st).

Expecting resale to NOT incur some depreciation would mean selling it with a HUGE margin of time available to find someone else with almost the same specs at a point when you're willing to sell. I don't find this is realistic, and when selling typically price to move whatever it is so I'm not stuck with money tied up in something I'm not using.

That aside, if wishes were horses, it sounds to me as though as a Ken Parker archtop might be your cup of tea since you don't want a classical sound and were willing to stick with steel strings. FWIW, I'm very impressed by an acoustic archtop in his design.... but the cost means leaving it to someone else... kind of like a Strad vs. Yamaha violin I suppose. Personally, I find Earl Klugh's style an appealing approach, but like I said, sounds like it's not your bit. Nylon on an archtop by a big name though.... seems to come at a healthy price. And Ken Parker.... takes the healthy price and multiplies it by 5 or 10 times. I'm not sure what the appeal of nylon on an archtop would be.... but then I've not heard any played either... so maybe I'm missing something? And FWIW, I find a lot of the archtop "carved" vs. "laminate" something I'm not hearing in the sound when amplified either.... but I'm sure it's there somewhere. But each their own.

As I'm playing CG and Archtop (12-52's), I don't find the tension appreciably different... if that's the drive. But I like both sounds.... and my CG is done with decidedly short nails (inspired by but not ever approaching a tenth equal to Rob MacKillop's sound).

Good luck in your quest! The quest is half the fun.... the other (more fun) is actually playing your new axe and finding it was worth the effort. You'll love it. I'm a rube and try to keep my instrument collection tied to some reason a rube can justify... but even a rube can enjoy the chase. Have fun!!!

[Cunamara]

I think what you're looking for is going to take (a) a very adventurous but experienced luthier and (b) bags of money, if you want a custom build. US$5000 or more would not surprise me at all. Slaman's Dome may actually be your most cost-effective option. Any luthier who does not already build the guitar you want is going to have to create forms, tooling, techniques, etc.; you're going to pay for that.

And if you need to amplify it, well, I have never heard a nylon string instrument with an acoustic box that sounded good amplified. Some sound adequate and it costs a lot of money to pull that off. The best sounding amplified nylon string guitar I have ever played is my Rick Turner Renaissance RN-6, which is a semi hollow body.

[RJVB]

Here's a bit of background. I've always preferred the IMHO more versatile nature of nylon-like strings: you can approach the sound of steel strings better/closer on them than you can approach the sound of nylon with steel. Nylon doesn't sing as nicely up high as steel, true, but you don't get the twang of the (open) plain wire strings and you do get a possibility for deep, dark basses that I've just never heard with (acoustic) steel strings. That said, it was never a doubt that I'd also want a steel stringer, and no modern classical guitar (CG). I like much of the kind of repertoire played on them, but I just don't appreciate their sound character.

Not so very long ago, I thought I had found the perfect shape in the mini-jumbo, and had plans to find (or commission) a suitable scaled down version of that shape as a crossover nylon stringer (= probably a grand auditorium or so). Thing is that mj never satisfied me for fingerpicking: I loved its good basses and singing highs but it was both too cathedral (if not cavernous) sounding and too quiet from my own playing position and (as a result) it was almost impossible to set up an action that allowed me to dig in for the volume I wanted without getting buzzes all over the place. Lightweight TI AC111s made it open up a bit better, but then I got my archtop which against expectation did almost exactly what I want from steel-string (of its price ). I had to force myself to pick up the mj after that, which always felt bleak sounding in comparison and was actually harder on my left hand despite its much lighter strings.
So I traded it in against the Cordoba Fusion from my sig, which turned out to be too much of a lemon but which does have a sound I could work with. A dynamic range like a classical (logical, the body is built like one), just a bit inpersonal (can be because I never bonded with it bc of intonation issues) and it feels small in my arms. It was always intended to be a bit of a temp solution, to help me bridge the time until I could have that nylon-string archtop.

So yeah. *Maybe* the things that make me prefer the archtop sound over a flattop in the steel-string domain are moot for nylon stringers. I've already read that archtops "can have the immediacy you can also find in a classical guitar", which could be related to the fact a classical also has subtly domed top and back.

Researching the Fusion I discovered I preferred the clearer sound of the 14-fretter over that of the 12-fret version, which sounds like a traditional CG to me. I had another good look at the Kremona Lulu Reinhardt models yesterday (hoping they might be domed like typical gypsy guitars; it appears they are not at all): interestingly I seem to prefer the sound of the 12-fret Kiano model over the 14-fret Daimen.

Resale value ... indeed something that factors into ordering a custom-build. Something like a Dome should be sellable without much loss because there are already enough of them out there to make them a "desirable known". Anything else ... I just don't know.

Amplification: a priori of no interest to me, and if given the chance I'd opt not to pay for on-board pickups and preamps (someone mentioned resale value...?). If needed I'd use a goose-neck mic, or, more likely, my Loar.

FWIW, I'd probably love what I could do sound wise with something like a liuto forte but I also want to be able to play common repertoire without having to cope with a deviant number of strings and tuning all the time.

[John A.]

This is a pressed solid spruce top:

And?

[Cunamara]

So, until this morning, I was unfamiliar with the fact that Yamaha makes what appears to be an arched top*, F-hole classical guitar. Huh.

Used Yamaha AEX 500N Classical Acoustic Electric Guitar Black | Guitar Center

I have no idea what it sounds like or how it plays, but I bet there's videos out there somewhere on the tube.

*EDIT: looking at the reflections on that photograph, I think it's probably a flat top.

[thelostboss]

And?

Deleted to make you happy John!!!!!

[RJVB]

Interlude: someone (2 brothers even) thought of the design I outlined above and built it, but for steel strings of course...

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

So, until this morning, I was unfamiliar with the fact that Yamaha makes what appears to be an arched top*, F-hole classical guitar. Huh.

Used Yamaha AEX 500N Classical Acoustic Electric Guitar Black | Guitar Center

I have no idea what it sounds like or how it plays, but I bet there's videos out there somewhere on the tube.

*EDIT: looking at the reflections on that photograph, I think it's probably a flat top.

Wow - yet another reason to go to GC!

The AEX500 was a flash in the pan around 2000 - I think it only stayed in the line for a year or two. To be polite, it was not a market success. They made the same basic guitar with steel (AEX500) and nylon (AEX500N) strings - but the steel version had a small neck humbucker as well as the piezo. The tops were as flat as the sales numbers, and the steel model had a trapeze tailpiece (!) behind a flattop bridge -