Starting A Jazz Guitar Manufacturing Business In The UK

[Archie]

Hi All.

I had been posting about my guitar business in the 'Builders Bench' section but thought perhaps it better to post here, where likely no one will read it. It doesn't seem right cluttering up that section of the forum with my thoughts on the price of workshops, or general chit chat about the business.

The Beginning:

So I had started off with a bang. A friend leant me their workshop (1,500 sq ft) and access to over 50k's worth of machinery, designed to produce wooden parts, with a high degree of accuracy. Of course I was going to start a Jazz guitar manufacturing company. Which business illiterate person wouldn't?
I was learning CAD, CAM and CNC operation, all off which was going rather well. I had learned how to 3D scan rare vintage guitars and measure the thickness of the tops, backs and sides, so I could learn how other skilled builders ply their trade/secrets. All of which was going very well. There wasn't a milestone or obstacle I wasn't reaching and or overcoming.

Suddenly from out of the blue, the lessee of the workshop (Manor Way) handed back the lease and I had to get all my stuff out. It's now stored at a small unit in Camberley.

Manor Way:

I tried to salvage a deal with the owner of the workshop. He offered me half the workshop for £30K (which I couldn't afford) but there was parking with it and the industrial estate I was on, had a real parking problem. I went round to some business and offered them parking for a fee and one accepted, offering me 12K p/a for 5 spaces. I could now afford to rent my half of the workshop but I would have to find a business to take the other half.
The people that were going to take on the unit as a whole were a BBQ shop company, who fell out of bed with the owner over price. When I told the BBQ shop they could share it with me and they can sublet their parking (20 spaces), to claw back costs, which they agreed to.
Things were looking good!
Unfortunately and I could see it coming. Now the BBQ shop know they can sublet the spaces and I had raised some money doing so, they went back to the owner and took on the whole building and at seems have cut me out in the process.

Still I had to try. Unfortunately all these negotiations took over a month and came to nothing.

Partner + Recession:

At the same time all of this is going on, my partner moved jobs down to the south coast, which meant the small workshop I now have in Camberley, was too far away. With that, I started looking for new workshops on the south coast.
Even though economic times are tough in the UK and we're in a recession, the demand for workshops is at an all time high. I cannot find anything suitable, for love nor money.
To top it off my partner was not happy at her new job (which I knew) and has now got another one back up near woking, where we currently live.

This brings me back to the Camberley workshop, which is relatively close to Heathrow and London, so ideal for her and 20 mins from Camberley so ideal for me.

Camberley:

So it all seems to have worked out. My stuff is at Camberley, I just need to get back to work, but there's a slight issue.
I hate Camberley. It's a military area and I went to military school there. I did not enjoy military boarding school at all.
I have never wanted to go back to that area. Overcoming this personal issue is proving a little difficult. My machinery has been in Camberley for around 2 months and I have not once, been interested in going there.
There is no 3 phase power (will take 6 weeks to put in), to run the bigger machines, no room to build a small spray dept. When I do start to run the machines, the neighbours will complain about the noise and likely make me stop.
It is not suitable by a long shot, although at the moment, it's the only shot I've got.

Energy:

Another fun dimension aside from the cost of living crisis, the media keep going on about, is the energy crisis. We have a crisis for everything these days in the UK. Energy bills have gone up over 400% (so yeh I guess this is a crisis). The government has had to step in and cap domestic energy bills. They have not offered the same cap for business users and so my energy bills to run a small industrial business, will be around £10-15k per annum. Providing old Vlad doesn't turn the pipes totally off.

Total Costs:

The total cost of me manufacturing for 1 year, will be around £25k or in American $30.5k p/a.


Giving Up:

Genuinely for the first time I'm starting to wonder if this whole thing is not a beating for nothing. There isn't even a proven business at the end of this. What I want to do is going to cost a lot more money, in terms of website building etc..
Of course everyone who starts a business gets these thoughts but It's been around 2 months since I was actively working on the physical side of the business. That's why there has been no updates etc..

If I move out to the west country, there are good workshops that are affordable but I would have to break up with my partner or convince her to move with me, which could jeopardise her job.

Myself and my partner are looking for a bigger apartment but as you can guess, there aren't currently any that suit us in the area we want (England in a nutshell). The housing market in the UK is crazy. The moment something half decent comes up, it's a total knife fight. People rent apartments without even viewing them; same with workshops and we're not talking about London or Brighton. We're talking about back waters and towns an hour outside of.


Plan Z:

Plan Z is a little crazy and is a bit of a pivot. I downsize my machinery and find a farm to rent with some outbuildings. I put the smaller single phase machinery in an outbuilding and work from home. The only trouble with this, is that is breaks way from what I wanted to be. I want to manufacture archtop guitars and associated parts. I don't want to be a guitar builder in a shed. There's already plenty of those.

I am feeling down in the dumps over it all but I also know that things around me are still shifting quite drastically. It is the nature of modern living.

Conclusion:

Of course everything will turn out in the end. I just need to be patient and things will fall into place. It's difficult because I'm trying to juggle quite a few things, many of which are time sensitive and or out of my control. My ideal outcome would be for me to find a workshop in the countryside, that I can organise the way that suits the business. That is proving hard to find and I only have a week or two left to accept the Camberley workshop, or lose it.

I'll have to come to a decision soon but I'm gong to try and squeeze another week out before circumstance force my hand.

I'm going to carry on with the business but I was not prepared for how expensive and difficult, building a small manufacturing business in the UK would be (probably everywhere to be fair). The biggest expense by far is the workshop and evergy costs. I had no idea that was going o be the issue. I thought the tooling was the hard part.


Onwards!

[Stringswinger]

Best of luck Archie.

2023 will be my last year as a bandleader (I will carry on as a sideman for a bit after that). This is a tough time to be in business. Land is expensive, labor is expensive, taxes are oppressive, government regulation is absurd, inflation is surging and competition is fierce.

I have owned three restaurants, a nightclub and a law practice in the past. I would not want to do any of that today. Building jazz guitars? The only way I could see making a million bucks doing that would be to start with two million.

[guitarcarver]

Well, you obviously have the drive and passion.

For the 3 phase machinery you could run VFDs. Variable frequency drives. Maybe not optimal but an option nonetheless. I'm using one on my resaw and absolutely love it. The 5 horse 3 phase motor stays cool and has plenty of torque cutting through hard maple, mahogany etc. I usually run it between 16 and 20 hertz.

As far as the cad stuff goes...again, not optimal for your vision, but you could do more old school traditional work by hand. If you have cad files in your possession you could farm out some of that and still make a profit on parts made??

I believe you will find a way and wish you all the best.

Gary

[Archie]

Here are some pics to document my journey over the last 12 months.

First set up the workshop (assembly area)



Machining Room



Learning basic CAD & CAM



Learning how to operate a CNC Machine




Building A Collection Of Guitars



Scanning Guitars



Turning Scans Into CAD



Machining CAD



Measuring Thickness Of Tops & Backs



Building Side Jigs From CAD



Designing & Building Vacuum Beds For Sander



Thickness & Sanding Wood To Make Veneers



Bending Veneers To Make Sides In Bladder Press



Taking Down Workshop



Machines Going



Cleared Out Workshop.




18 months ago I had never worked with wood before. I didn't know what a planer was, a panel saw, a wide belt sander. I didn't know about vacuum pressing, CNC machining, CAD, CAM, Scanning, what it's like to have a workshop, dust extraction, engineering, how to deal with machine sellers, how to set machine up (still learning), how to talk to suppliers, what wood does and how to choose good wood and find wood suppliers, setting up a workshop.

I was a failed Jazz Guitarist who left uni before completing and ended up spraying tower blocks for developers.

As soon as I find a good workshop, I'll continue where I left off.

The next stage is to make a laminate body, machine a neck and design a system to attach the necks and bodies, in a way that is CNC machine friendly and allows for modification. I also need to learn how to use a laser cutter but that won't be hard.

Lots of exciting times ahead; I've had a lot of fun so far.

Onwards!

[Archie]

Well, you obviously have the drive and passion.

For the 3 phase machinery you could run VFDs. Variable frequency drives. Maybe not optimal but an option nonetheless. I'm using one on my resaw and absolutely love it. The 5 horse 3 phase motor stays cool and has plenty of torque cutting through hard maple, mahogany etc. I usually run it between 16 and 20 hertz.

As far as the cad stuff goes...again, not optimal for your vision, but you could do more old school traditional work by hand. If you have cad files in your possession you could farm out some of that and still make a profit on parts made??

I believe you will find a way and wish you all the best.

Gary

I'll PM you and we can talk further. Many Thanks.

[rlrhett]

My heart goes out to you. I was in the same boat about fifteen years ago, only in Southern California. After five years of experimenting I had built the best sounding and playing ACOUSTIC arch top I had ever come across. There was nothing like it on the market, and I was excited to start making and selling them! A school acquaintance Pepe Romero (yes, son of THAT Pepe Romero) was making a modest living as a luthier, and I wanted to as well.

The irony is that up to that point I had been an attorney who primarily represented small closely held businesses. I had watched many fail, and prided myself in knowing what a real business plan was, and what it really took to succeed. Of course, when it came to my dreams I forgot all that.

A business is PMG, People pay you Money for your Goods or services. If you can’t reach the people or they won’t pay you enough money it doesn’t matter how amazing your goods are.

A college aged Pepe Romero went to Spain for a couple of months to learn the craft. When he got home to California he built a dozen guitars and had them sold before they were built. That is not to say he doesn’t make master grade guitars now, twenty five years and several hundred guitars later, but back then I can’t believe his guitars were any better than any of hundreds of other amateur luthiers working in their garages. Yet he had them sold.

Pepe had access to people dying to buy a classical guitar with his name on it. He knew exactly how to market to his father’s fans. It would be like a Jimmy Hendrix, Jr., selling Strat knock offs. Those people were willing to pay him $6,000, or $8,000, or even $20,000, sight unseen just to have his dad’s name on a guitar.

Even so, he hasn’t had an easy time of it. California has become one of the most expensive places in the world to live. His “People” (his market, if you prefer) will sit on a waiting list for a year and pay him $10,000 for a guitar he personally makes. But there’s a limit to how many he can make. After exorbitant expenses, it has not been a path to riches. I get the sense that it has been much harder for him to connect with a market willing to pay $2,500 for a guitar he designed but were made by other craftsmen. Cranking out guitars year after year seems to be something he’d rather get away from (or so it seems to this outside observer).

That is not to say Pepe’s guitars aren’t amazing. I played one a few years ago and kept looking for the amp. I have never heard a guitar with so much volume or clarity. It was unreal. But I seriously doubt his first twenty were anything like that.

As for me, I set up my shop and was ready to make two or three a month. I took them to guitar shows and got very positive responses. One well known celebrity luthier told me he would take mine over a Benedetto any day (they were displaying next to where I was). Even Pepe Romero‘s father played my nylon string version and declared, “now that one I like!”

But he didn’t order one. I had a few requests, and turned down a bunch that were nonsensical. In the end luthier guitars proved to be more about luxury branding that functionality. There may be passionate young watch makers in Switzerland making mechanical watches with twice the precision as a Rolex, but no one buys a Rolex because of how well it keeps time. They buy a Rolex because it says “Rolex”.

Just look at this forum. People buy and sell Gibsons all the time, but a Bill Moll languished unsold. Campeleone is all the rage on the forum now, but a few years ago on this forum no one was terribly interested. If Gibson hadn’t imploded I doubt we would even be talking about him. You would think the forum would be full of people hunting out the newest most talented young luthiers, looking for the next big thing, getting great guitars for cheap. If they are, I’ve not seen any such posts.

I know that all sounds very cynical. Please prove me wrong. But perhaps your challenges getting started are actually a good thing. It might help you avoid chasing mirages.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Woody Sound]

I admire your tenacity. Let's hope it comes together.

[Litterick]

How will your guitars differ from the five you bought and scanned? Or do you intend to make replicas?

[RJVB]

Building jazz guitars? The only way I could see making a million bucks doing that would be to start with two million.

More or less what I was going to say, the old adage

Bow do you make a small fortune with X?
Start with a big fortune!

I've first seen it about motorcycle dealerships/workshops, but I had to think of this immediately when I saw the thread title.

[RJVB]

Even Pepe Romero‘s father played my nylon string version and declared, “now that one I like!”

You don't happen to have one of those lying around under a bed or so, do you?

[jazzkritter]

Archie:
It’s just like playing what the audience wants versus playing what the bandstand wants to play.
Biggest mistake (IMHO) people make going into a business is making/doing something THEY deem important.
Any good business plan starts with market analysis and projecting sales, costs and profit. In other words, what a significant number of people want to buy.
I suspect the archtop guitar market is made up of a high percentage of us folks of ‘a certain age’. Are there enough of us boomers/old jazzfarts out there interested in a start up archtop with no history? What will differentiate your guitar from Campy? Trenier?
Honestly Archie, life is way too short. Please don’t make yourself crazy in pursuit of a goal that may disappoint you.
Im sure there’s some nice places in Slough to settle into.
jk

[Litterick]

Come friendly bombs and fall on Slough!
It isn't fit for humans now,
There isn't grass to graze a cow.
Swarm over, Death!

Betjeman

[jazzkritter]

Oh my, Litterick.
60% of my UK experience was in Slough.
it was wonderful.
Reminded me so much of Woodbridge New Jersey, USA.

[Litterick]

Slough, twinned with Scranton, Pennsylvania.

[Archie]

Thank you all so much for that sage advice and encouragement.

I don’t know how to do market analysis on what I’m trying to achieve but I can tell you what I want to happen. England has always had a proud and world beating manufacturing history. It seems odd to me that as a hobbyist engineer (I suppose), England isn’t known for making world leading Archtops.
That’s not a thing you can hang a business on but you get the dream.
I want to take Japan’s crown and bring it over to Europe.

Japanese quality, American soul.

Secondly, my business model is totally different, to what is available on the archtop market. That doesn’t automatically mean success but it’s helpful.

I don’t want to make the worlds finest Archtop. You’ll never beat D’angelico in the name stakes, not whilst Gruhn is alive.
I want to become the go to place for the purchase of very high quality, affordable archtops, whether that’s B2B or B2C.
I don’t know if this is a better idea or not but there is no point in becoming a man in a basement or shed, or small workshop with hand tools. It’s romantic but it’s already a market I’d have to compete in. I want a new market. I have to strive out on my own.

I have no interest in competing with Trennier, Campellone etc.. they are already far advanced and trying to catch them up would be futile and a poor return on time etc..
It’s better for me to offer them something to help their business. If I get 5 luthiers that’s 5x the business one luthier has.

Production will always be a better business model than luthiery but to me, it’s not about the money, it’s about the journey and pride in making a high quality product.

[Archie]

How will your guitars differ from the five you bought and scanned? Or do you intend to make replicas?

5!? It’s over double that and still rising.

[RJVB]

I suspect the archtop guitar market is made up of a high percentage of us folks of ‘a certain age’. Are there enough of us boomers/old jazzfarts out there interested in a start up archtop with no history? What will differentiate your guitar from Campy? Trenier?

Sadly that's not untrue, and sadly it's really cutting short the potential good archtop guitars have. It can go so much beyond hocking out cut-through-the-mix-but-don't-compete-with-the-bass accompanying chords or producing velvety tones that sound exactly what the average listener would expect as the "natural" output from a(ny) electric guitar. It's a question I wonder about almost daily on here: why spend a ton of money on an exquisite, hand-carved instrument if it's mostly to slap a PU on and make it sound like (= hardly nicer) than the sound you could probably get from a cheap DIY kit. (Remember that debunking video from a country guitarist who got the same sound out of an expensive what-was-it-again, and a set of strings strung between 2 benches with the PU suspended underneath!)

The other week I discovered a luthier on the continent here, retired from some profession that taught him the required skills. He makes 4 guitars per year, just for the sheer pleasure, and sells them at cost (1500€ for one of his standard flat-top models). He has enough orders to keep him busy for a while (so I'm not going to tell more before I've decided whether or not I want a chance at a slot ).

I suppose this could be a way to see if starting a business is a viable project: you get to do something you'd love to do without losing (too much) money; if it "takes" you start raising your prices and moving out of wherever you've been doing it.

BTW, Japan the pinnacle?! I'm only really interested in acoustic archtops and I don't think I've ever seen or heard of a Kohno of the acoustic archtop (and AFAIK Kohno classicals aren't everyone's cuppa, which somehow doesn't surprise me for a Japanese arte factum).

[Rob MacKillop]

Good luck, Archtop Heaven. Your story is heartbreaking so far, but you seem tenacious, and that’s a necessary quality in the archtop sales area. Best wishes!

[David B]

Archtop Heaven,

Some tough love if I may. Following ones dreams is admirable, and I wish you well, but the challenges you face are significant. I would strongly urge you to honestly consider your current position before investing more time, effort and money in this project.

I have followed and read all your threads on this project and would pose a number of questions to reflect on.

You write "18 months ago I had never worked with wood before. I didn't know what a planer was, a panel saw, a wide belt sander. I didn't know about vacuum pressing, CNC machining, CAD, CAM, Scanning, what it's like to have a workshop, dust extraction, engineering, how to deal with machine sellers, how to set machine up (still learning), how to talk to suppliers, what wood does and how to choose good wood and find wood suppliers, setting up a workshop."

It appears to me that your current circumstances and declared skill set mean that you are still some distance away from being in a position to complete an archtop guitar, let alone be able to establish a commercially-viable archtop guitar making business.

On you own account and posts here, you have already invested thousands of pounds in fitting out a workshop, purchasing tools and equipment that in some cases, you have little or no experience working with, but rather think you will need in the future. See your threads: Starting My Own Guitar Company and No Going Back

You have been able to scan some instruments, produce some templates and moulds and some basic forms as per your photos. You have taught yourself to use some CNC equipment.

Do you currently have the necessary skills to build a completed instrument? Set a neck angle? Bind a body and neck? Can you fret a guitar? Spray a finish? If not, I would question the wisdom of teaching yourself how to build an archtop whilst incurring the considerable expenses (commercial rent, energy, equipment) of a commercial-grade workshop or premises.

Have you been on any guitar making courses before? Have you made any kind of musical instrument before? Canadian luthier Wyatt Wilkie offers a 10 day course where you can learn to build an archtop, from start to finish, under his supervision. I would look into something like that to build my skills before going any further.

In my experience, many luthiers seem to cut their teeth doing setup and repair work before venturing into building their own instruments. Is that an area of work you would be willing to consider? It would be a wayto get your hands on many more instruments, develop skills and build connections with players (who may in time be in a position to road-test your own instruments or become your first customers). You likely have most of the equipments and tools you would need to start out and could manage with a much smaller workspace than you’ve had.

In your first post in this thread, you write "The total cost of me manufacturing for 1 year, will be around £25k or in American $30.5k p/a."

How have you reached this figure? Have you accounted not just for energy and rent but business rates, material costs, website and marketing costs, the cost of writing off unsuccessful early attempts, building instruments for stock for demos and guitar show displays, paying yourself a living wage?

Have you calculated how many instruments you would need to sell, and at which price, in order to meet your costs? Are you able to build an instrument to the intended quality and price point? How long are you prepared to operate at a loss until you can?

Do you have an original instrument designed, waiting to be be built? What need or want do you see that is not already being met by independent luthiers or larger manufacturers already in the archtop market?

You write "I want to manufacture archtop guitars and associated parts. I don't want to be a guitar builder in a shed. There's already plenty of those."

You want to be a manufacturer, not a builder. What do you mean by that? How many instruments do you plan to manufacture per year? Like it or not (and I'm sure we all don't), the market for archtop guitars is very small. If the market were able to support more than individual or small team luthiers in the UK, don't you think someone would already be doing it? You say you don't want to be a man in a shed, but perhaps that’s where you need to start. Start small, build one guitar and learn from the experience before jumping straight in to larger scale production. Without a proper business plan and the the necessary skills (both guitar making and business) to put it into action, I fear you are going to struggle by starting at the sort of scale you hint at.

You write "I have no interest in competing with Trennier, Campellone etc.. they are already far advanced and trying to catch them up would be futile and a poor return on time etc. It’s better for me to offer them something to help their business. If I get 5 luthiers that’s 5x the business one luthier has."

What are you able to offer to established luthiers to help their business? What does this have to do with your own plans to manufacture guitars?

[DawgBone]

My two cents, worth what I'm charging you for it.

Dreams and reality, two very different things. Aside from it being an utterly horrible time to start a business in just about any western nation, since you seem like you are going to soldier forward....

I like your idea quite a lot. Japanese quality with American soul, but define "affordable"? England, and for that matter, many US states, are not affordable places to conduct business any longer. I have a relative that is an attorney who runs their own firm that moved out of California because they tax you every year on rented water coolers and old sofas. And we are talking about a line of work that generates real money.

So your location will demand a substantial markup just to keep the lights on. I would definitely be looking to rent a farm in the country as you mentioned. It's a good idea. A barn, garage, or workshop. Sometimes living like a caveman is part of the dues paying process so I'd be prepared to live in a warehouse or barn if it's what you really want to do. I wanted to play full time while I built my home using pretty minimal proceeds. You wouldn't have liked my living arrangements for the first two years. I didn't either but everything comes at a cost one way or another. Let's just say a flush toilet and running hot water will never be taken for granted again by me. Either break out the american express or downgrade your lifestyle.

If your "partner" isn't supportive of your goals then she needs to get with the program because obviously you've done more than kick tires and pipe dream about this, you're already in deep on the equipment end. In my world a partner and a bride are two very different things and as such that would be factored in accordingly. But I'm me, not you.

I think some networking also might do you good. Another poster was asking your about fretwork, binding, inlays, cutting nuts, and general setup work skills. Perhaps reaching out and letting some people know the hand you intend to play would result in meeting one or two like minds where a partnership would be mutually beneficial monetarily, equipment wise, know-how, or shop space. Even someone who has am empty barn or garage and just wants someone around keeping an eye on things would be a real step up.

As far as instruments themselves, you need a niche that isn't currently being filled. And there are a lot of guitar makers out there right now and most of the successful ones are just copying or doing slight alterations of previous designs. The greatest financial success might involve making guitars that aren't where your heart is the most.

A few areas I see lacking that seem to command interest is the Byrdland type guitars with short scale for under 3k but nice enough to make them more than just a sub-1k chinese guitar. I see a potential market for a 175s in the same price range. Seventy Seven quit making their exrubato jazz which is essentially a hollow 335/345/355. Perhaps a similar hollow guitar with a slightly thicker body that would appeal to jazz guys (limited market) and blues and rock players (greater market)?

I would avoid making copies of also-ran guitars ala the Guild you were scanning. Not saying you can't incorporate some of the design parameters but people buy Gibsons not Guilds. Something more similar to a Gibson will sell better than something closer to a Guild. Regardless, whatever you build make sure it has a very attractive headstock because that is a huge turn off for a lot of players. Yes, it's shallow but guitarists are fickle and flaky by nature almost down to the last man.

You may need to eat the costs on a few giveaway guitars to known area players or youtubers so you can raise your company profile once you get things cooking on a regular basis. I don't know English tax law but in the United States that would qualify as a business write off. In the USA you would keep careful records on your expenditures, gas and mileage on the vehicle to and from the job, materials, equipment, electricity bill, repairs on equipment or building, lunch and drinks during work hours, beer and whiskey for the company christmas party, hotel rooms and business related travel expenses, etc.

I wish you all the fortune in the world on your endeavors. Doing something great is never the easy road. The easy road is to sell all your equipment and go work for someone else. My best to you-DawgBone

[Doctor Jeff]

I admire your drive and determination.

Lots of interesting comments, some of them sound advice. JMO I would not be put off by people pointing out you didn’t start with certain skills. The way you become a craftsman is to study and practice the craft, period. There’s a steep learning curve, but once you get the hang of it your skills and processes will improve exponentially. Teachers help, courses help, but there’s no substitute for doing it.

I have a small woodworking hobby. I am actually selling my stuff at an open house today. I anticipate I will do this at least half time when I retire in the next 5-10 years. (If the wood dust allergy doesn’t keep me from it.) My shop is tiny though—fits in an old garage space in the basement. I don’t see it as a big money-maker, just a way to stay busy after I quit my day job.

I am fascinated by all the challenges you have dealt with. Trying to do things at a certain scale introduces complexities and problems never anticipated.

And again, this is JMO, but I think you would not have 50% of the issues you’re facing if you were working in a place in the Midwest like Omaha. The cost of living and running a business is creeping up here as well, but it’s certainly cheaper than in London or the coasts of America. We have a “Maker’s Row”—converted warehouses—which the city is basically throwing money at people to use. There is an acquaintance of mine who runs a violin and cello repair and manufacturing business out of one of these warehouses. His backlog is in months.

Anyway, thanks for sharing your journey. Good luck!

[ccroft]

Hey ArchHeaven! Sorry to hear about your troubles, but you seem to be a cock-eyed optimist so I feel you will prevail :-)

As you know from earlier discussions, I've been in wood-working for about 35 years. I have one thing I'd like to throw out there if you don't mind: there's really nothing wrong with a shed in the backyard. Just make sure you've got enough property so you can knock it down and build a proper shop for your excellent and expensive machinery. And make it at least 25% bigger than what you think you will need.

This goes to something that both you and I have experienced: renting blows. You get kicked out and all your work of setting up electrical, air, dust collection and machinery is a loss. And then you have to do it all again in the new place, which adds to the loss.

About twenty years back I suggested to our owners that we find a way of investing in commercial real estate. Together we could have pulled it off. He was nervous about debt and costs: moving, downtime, and set-up. At that time he figured it was something like $30K, so... I got the picture and backed off.

Now we're looking at shutting down and retiring in about 2 years. Without the guys that make it go, a shop is only worth the value of the machinery in it. I mean, what's Campellone Ltd without Mark? So over the last 26 years or so we've paid north of $1.5 million in rent, and over that time the value of commercial property around here has more than doubled, while interest rates have been at historic lows.

Unless you have your retirement covered, I highly recommend you find a way to buy so that at the end of your career you have something of real value to sell. The business has to pay for the building either way.

Best of luck in your continuing adventure!

Sincerely,
Charles

[rlrhett]

I’ve never paid taxes on an old sofa or a rented water cooler in California despide doing business here thirty years. :lol But it is a very expensive place to do business. There are advantages to being in densely populated globally connected places full of opportunities. Advantages that can outweigh the cost. That’s why more new businesses start in California every year than do in the next twenty states combined.

But these advantages are not really an issue for the kind of business you are contemplating. I suspect that is why Emerald Guitars is in a little town in Donegal, Ireland, and Crimson Guitars is in Piddlehinton (yeah, that’s a real place). There is wisdom in seeking a low cost rural community. There are places in Spain and Italy where they will practically pay you to build a commercial facility. I assume the same must be true in cheery old England. Since you seem undeterred, I would certainly give that serious consideration. For what you are talking about all you need is 400amps of reliable three phase power and a place to ship by DHL. Eliminate as much of the rest as you can. The lower your expenses, including your own personal expenses, the better your likelihood of success.


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[thelostboss]

There is only one viable solution that I can see; emigrate to OZ, we could use you down here!

Best of luck with whatever decision you end up with.

[Archie]

Hi everyone.

Been meaning to get back to all your well considered responses but haven't had time this weekend. I have been thinking about everything you've said, including encouraging my partner to read the thread. We've then chatted over what's been suggested whilst taking care of some business she's tied up with.

I will write a better response over the next two days.

Thanks once again!