The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Join me on my anime journey to find a cheaper alternative to my current wide belt sander.

    Times are hard and I’m making an effort to investigate alternative machines and ways of working, that will help my business survive the next year or two.

    They focus is on energy saving, maintenance, cost of machine and size (now that I’m in a smaller workshop).
    What is not up for renegotiation however is quality.

    The only downside with drum sanders is that they don’t oscillate. This means they leave lines in the sanded material. These lines become less prominent as the grit on the sand paper becomes finer. An 80 grit sandpapered will leave visible lines; a 320g is not as noticeable.
    This could ultimately make the change to drum sanding unpractical, as my wide belt sander oscillates thus leaving an excellent finish.
    Secondly, drum sanding paper heats up far more quickly and needs replacing more often.

    The most frustrating thing is that you can’t go anywhere and test the machines. You have to buy it and pray you’ve done your due diligence. I would say tooling up is one of the riskiest cost outlays because if you get it wrong, it could have massive consequences. Especially when you’re at your budget for each machine.

    I’ll try and turn this process into a series, although it’s all being made up on the fly so could be quite random.

    I’ll also make a video addressing the comments in this thread over the rest of the week.

    Last edited by Archie; 12-14-2022 at 11:45 PM.

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  3. #27

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    "... I don't want to be a guitar builder in a shed. There's already plenty of those...."

    You've elucidated quite well the reason$ why there are so many.

    I'm truly sorry I don't have anything constructive to add except maybe that a good solution may require some serious 'outside the box' thinking.

    Wishing you the be
    st.

  4. #28

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    AH,

    I watched your video. Does the belt/drum sander have intended applications beyond the making of veneers? If not, might outsourcing the production of the veneers be an option at this stage, at least until production ramps up?
    Last edited by David B; 12-15-2022 at 12:11 PM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by David B
    AH,

    I watched your video. Does the belt/drum sander have intended applications beyond the making of veneers? If not, might outsourcing the production of the veneers be an option at this stage, at least until production ramps up?
    David good question.

    My original idea was to outsource everything but I found the cost of manufacturing to be ultimately so high, there was almost no profit left. This is before marketing.
    Of course it depends on price of instrument but I aim to be in the sub 3k range.

    I will be subbing out the finishing but that will cost around £600 which is a large amount of the cost of manufacturing.

    I have found that that it is not really obvious or possible to find a company that will manufacture custom veneers. They all seem to come in pre determined thickness of .8mm, 1.5mm or higher. The manufacturing of the veneers and thus laminates is incredibly important.
    I did find one chap with a very good wide belt sander in Scotland who could take on the work but even then, specialist tables and beds need to be machined.

    It ended up seeming to be too important a part of the design process to
    leave to someone else and the expense likely so high, it would be worth buying my own. Although still a stretch from here to there,

    On the other side, I have considered that perhaps I am the one who can sell the veneer going forward to other manufactures and this will be part of my b2b attempts.

    I have decided to stick with the wide belt sander as the quality of finish is still far superior to that of a non oscillating drum sander.

  6. #30

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    Do you have any guitars actually designed and/or prototyped yet?

  7. #31

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    Not yet.

    Each part of the process is staged. The body, binding, neck, fretting, etc..

    At the moment I’m focusing on making the body. I have a number of different bodies to make which I will make available for sale without the neck block dove tailed. Those bodies can be purchased with some options around binding, wood options, lamination options, depth, f hole options and pick-up placement (if required).
    This is more likely a b2b option and I will approach some builders, or approach the open market as a whole, through ArchtopHeaven.com or other domain name.

    The site is not yet up and running.

    I will also offer veneers made for musical instrument manufacturing. I.e ones suited to vacuum forming etc.. this would absolutely be b2b.

    There has been a huge amount of R&D going on. I’m at the stage now where I have successfully made a veneer of satisfactory quality. That is to say one with a tolerance of under roughly 0.1mm across a 500x600 sheet of maple of poplar.
    I want the tolerances exact, so that there is no need for excess gluing and the laminate is consistent. This will allow me to tone the laminate in a way that lowers other variables.

    It also helps with consistency I in thickness which will allow me to reduce weight especially around the sides. Less glue, more uniform thickness, better control, lower weight.
    I want to produce the finest veneers for construction.
    Last edited by Archie; 12-15-2022 at 08:39 PM.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven

    It seems odd to me that as a hobbyist engineer (I suppose), England isn’t known for making world leading Archtops.
    or world-leading *anything* for that matter


  9. #33

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    I wish you the best and your guitars to be part of the jazz revival around the world !



  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    or world-leading *anything* for that matter
    English cuisine?
    (No, I wasn't thinking of haggish ... that's Scottish AFAIK )

    Quote Originally Posted by itsmyname
    I wish you the best and your guitars to be part of the jazz revival around the world !
    Why stop there?! Archtops can do so much more than play jazz

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    English cuisine?
    Archtops can do so much more than play jazz
    Agreed. I would definitely consider gearing a model or two towards the blues and blues-rock player. Old guys, retired ex-hippies, love blues and have disposable income for the target pricing ArchtopHeaven has in mind. The generation after them, the 1970's guys, love blues-rock and classic rock, and also have money and are retired or entering retirement. A good selling "blues" model may help to fund the true passion of the more strictly jazz oriented models he has in mind.

  12. #36

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    Going forward I’m going to try and post a daily vlog regarding the guitar venture.
    I have actually been doing this for months but never posted them.

    I’m trying to make a start now that I have found a comfortable way of doing so.

    I can’t say there will be much of interest in the vlogs but it will help me stay motivated and hold me to accountable to some degree, which can only help.

    I’ll try to number them so there is some sort of cohesion and I will post back dated ones too in order to flesh out the entire experience.

    For those interested, visit my youtube channel and look at the play list sections, for a better orientation and timeline of vlogs and videos.

    I apologise for the very armature video experience. i’m sure as time goes on, this will improve.

    Cheers


  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    or world-leading *anything* for that matter

    We are world leaders in snarky comments

    … oh wait

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgBone
    Agreed. I would definitely consider gearing a model or two towards the blues and blues-rock player.
    Just a good acoustic archtop with a well-balanced tonal range ... look what Michael Chapdelaine and Michael Watts do on the blue guitars (or a Ken Parker, as far as the latter is concerned). Or Anthony Wilson's Seasons project (I don't know if that's considered to be jazz; it's classical music for me.) I know that's setting the bar really high, but I don't believe that it's only possible on instruments of that calibre.

    Oh, and I'd consider a nylon-string archtop too!

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    I’m trying to make a start now that I have found a comfortable way of doing so.
    Nice - and good that you fixed your solarisation issue

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    ....I have decided to stick with the wide belt sander as the quality of finish is still far superior to that of a non oscillating drum sander.
    Good call. Wide belts came after drums, and they were developed for a reason. You can lift the platen for more aggressive runs and it works like a drum sander, but we never do. I venture to say that 98% of the machine sanded veneer in the world is done on a wide belt. The other 2% would be a stroke sander. I've sanded thru with one of those a few times. Too bad it seems SCM stopped making 24's. We have one and we very rarely wish we had a 37. If we had a 37, we'd wish we had a 50!

    Making your own veneer seems a bit... odd to me. Are you thinking of making the core veneers as well as the show sides? You sure you can't find what you want from a veneer mill, for the core at least? I've read there are mills geared towards marine that make thicker than the typical stuff we use. Do all luthiers who make laminated guitars make their own veneer? No wonder those guitars are so expensive :-)

    I'm sure you're aware that commercial veneer is sliced on a giant blade, rather than sawn and sanded. It's used directly out of the flitch without sanding. It's very very consistent all the way thru the bundles. It's unlikely you can do better with your sander.

    I'm gonna talk to a my veneer guy and see if he knows how to source thicker. You looking for 1mm X 5 = 5mm plates?

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    or world-leading *anything* for that matter

    Lol you better duck!! )

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Good call. Wide belts came after drums, and they were developed for a reason. You can lift the platen for more aggressive runs and it works like a drum sander, but we never do. I venture to say that 98% of the machine sanded veneer in the world is done on a wide belt. The other 2% would be a stroke sander. I've sanded thru with one of those a few times. Too bad it seems SCM stopped making 24's. We have one and we very rarely wish we had a 37. If we had a 37, we'd wish we had a 50!

    Making your own veneer seems a bit... odd to me. Are you thinking of making the core veneers as well as the show sides? You sure you can't find what you want from a veneer mill, for the core at least? I've read there are mills geared towards marine that make thicker than the typical stuff we use. Do all luthiers who make laminated guitars make their own veneer? No wonder those guitars are so expensive :-)

    I'm sure you're aware that commercial veneer is sliced on a giant blade, rather than sawn and sanded. It's used directly out of the flitch without sanding. It's very very consistent all the way thru the bundles. It's unlikely you can do better with your sander.

    I'm gonna talk to a my veneer guy and see if he knows how to source thicker. You looking for 1mm X 5 = 5mm plates?
    Hi Croft.

    Yes the idea is to make the all the veneered layers.

    I have been to the biggest stockist of veneers in the uk called ‘Capital Crispin’. They only seem to do .8mm or 1.5mm. You’re right about the logs being sliced. Even so the edges of the veneers are thinner than the centre, due to run off on the start and finish of the cutting. The widest boards in say poplar are 250mm so of course you need two. Take away the run off either side and you get 225mm. X that’ by two and you haven’t even got a 17” plate.
    There are other suppliers, toneline for example but they simply buy from Capital Crispin. Everyone does.
    The UK has in no way the same amount of wood selection that the US and EU does but that’s doesn’t mean I haven’t looked hard enough.

    My aim is to buy locally sourced English lumber, (sycamore etc..) from my local saw mill, where possible; re-saw them on my coming bandsaw, using a sliding table attachment and then run them through the wide belt, for final sanding and any potential thicknessing.

    Doing it this way also keeps costs down (aside from machine cost and running cost). A plank of nice sycamore will cost me £70 and make 15 matching sides and backs. Buying the wood in from the EU would be nearer £300?

    The veneer sizes I would be looking for are:

    250-300mm wide
    2000mm long
    1.2mm thick

    I’d go for 1.2mm over 1mm so I can control the final thickness. If you start at 1mm and have to sand off .2mm (.1mm either side) you’ve no longer got a 1mm veneer.

    I would assume that even environmental exposure would change a 1mm veneer. I aim to cut mine, glue and press them within 30 mins of them coming off the bandsaw.
    The veneers will get wrapped to avoid contact with the environment, the moment they come off the re-saw, sander and then into the press.

    Really appreciate your offer; very kind of you. Look forward to hearing the result.
    Last edited by Archie; 12-16-2022 at 10:26 PM.

  19. #43

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    What does Kollitz charge?

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    What does Kollitz charge?
    Not yet sure about their laminates. I need to call them and discus their process.
    whatever it is, it will be + 20% vodka and tonic (VAT)

    at any rate I assume I will be purchasing their spruce for lamination and pressed boards although I can buy them here.

    No doubt worth going over there and getting a real feel for what they have to offer and perhaps discussing some custom work.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    whatever it is, it will be + 20% vodka and tonic (VAT)
    The angels' share?
    (hmmm, wood-aged vodka ... isn't that just cheap whiskey? )

  22. #46

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    Top notch Video...what great assistance your getting from members here....impressive too...Good Luck

  23. #47

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    New video just uploaded.

    Nothing too exciting but the journey continues.


  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    New video just uploaded.

    Nothing too exciting but the journey continues.

    Nice photography shoot space. That’s much larger than mine. Where’s the new guitar build space?

  25. #49

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    Hi All.

    There’s been a lot of work going on, moving and setting up the new workshop, as many of you know. I wasn’t prepared for how much work. Although I’ve been recording vlogs nearly everyday; when the day is done, I haven’t had the energy to edit and post them.

    Now that the new workshop is finely taking shape, I’ve been able to divert some time, into getting back on top of media

    Episode 1 details my first encounter with the new workshop and my first steps to getting it ready.

    To be clear, the footage in this video is 5 months old.

    A big shout out to Joe DeNisco

    Last edited by Archie; 03-29-2023 at 07:06 AM.

  26. #50

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    well done on sticking with your idea. I was going to suggest looking at Norfolk as a place to work from. Very little crime, lots of farms to rent and offices/ workshops. Rent is cheap and lots of countryside very rural.
    I think ive only come across one or two indipendent guitar builders in the UK that do arch tops. They do about two-three models starting at £5500. Isn't fibonacci in London. I know their Nigel price signature model is £3500.
    I think a good idea is to maybe think about offering parts perhaps. Its a real headache getting nice archtop tailpieces or pick guards so anyone making custom ones could do well. I know jack white does celluloid Gibson replicas but some one making good quality bound wooden ones could do well I think.
    Guitar wise for me I am fussy about design. Ie headstock shape, cutaway shape, F holes, I don't like the wooden tailpieces and pick guard. I like the borys b120 design, Benedetto bravo design, 60s guild artist award and of course the Gibson l5, Johnny smith but I like the more modern borys and Benedetto .
    I think before you start making the guitars put up some posts of your designs so we can have a look and give some comments.
    I hope you stick with it. I guess the two main issues are going to be price and design but you haven't got too much competition in England so I wish you all the best and ill be keeping an eye out for your progress best of luck