The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I am preparing to build an ES 175 based on the well-known drawing from Australien Luthier Supplies (because I want to make the top, sides and back of solid wood, it will actually be an L4CES). According to the drawing there is a very small dome too small for my taste, in both top and back. In Benedetto's book a much larger dome is used: about 16mm on the top. Now that 16mm seems quite big for a 16 inch guitar. My question now is: what is a common curve in top and back on a 16 inch archtop, or does it not matter much on a guitar with two humbucker pickups?

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  3. #2

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    Hello,
    As I have written in another thread yesterday, you can eventually get a nice arched top back and sides, in solid wood, by the luthier wood supplier kollitz tonewood, Germany based.
    That's where I've bought mine when I started my l-7 repro project.Es-175/l-4 ces-img_20220216_0956282-jpg
    As you can see in the attached files, it's really well arched, and it's massive german spruce and european sourced maple, with really nice grain.
    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_20220215_175507-jpgEs-175/l-4 ces-img_20220215_175239-jpg

    By the way, you can choose the wood grade, from b stocks (the ones I've ordered) to AAAA grade. B grade is still a good choice, given the quality of what I've got.

    The arched plates are available in different size, if I remember well.
    Just ask and see. ]Es-175/l-4 ces-resized_20221120_115714-jpg

    If thickness is a matter, you 'll have a 4 mm thick top all across the top, and the back (wich is really hard plain slightly figured maple).
    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_20220711_2034493-jpg

    I don't know if it can help.
    Best regards from France
    Attached Images Attached Images Es-175/l-4 ces-img_20210630_110521-jpg 
    Last edited by arno_byr; 12-24-2022 at 04:08 AM.

  4. #3

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    Thanks Arno you for your reply; your L7 looks really beautiful; good workmanship. But what I would really like to know is how big the arch should be on a 16” guitar like the ES175 or the L4CES. Now I can imagine that the bulge in the top and in the back do not have that much influence on the final sound when two humbuckers are mounted in the guitar. And besides: an ES175 (the sound I'm looking for) is made of laminated wood anyway and doesn't have a recurve along the entire circumference. It seems that with the ES175 the height of the top is not very relevant. I'm not quite sure what to do at the moment.

  5. #4

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    The dome you refer to, I assume you mean the arching pattern. Throughout the history of archtop building from violins to archtop guitars, the arching pattern has been the signature of the luthier. Stradivarius had a higher tubular arching than his contempory Amati and Guarnari. In the archtop guitar world, it's the same: D'Aquisto had a higher arch than Stomberg, for example, who used a lower peaked arching pattern, flatter overall and leading to what amounted to a rounded peak. Gibson had a characteristic rounded curve and that's what gives all these instruments different sounds. Graduations vary depending on the arching so a high rounded arch can allow you to use thinner graduations if you wanted, for a quicker response and a more delicate and reactive attack (Benedetto and Eastman).
    It was the apprentice/master process where the subtleties of archings are passed on as well as the myriad of parameters that effect the sound. I studied with Al Carruth who studied with Carleen Hutchens a violin builder who studied with Saconi who was a viol family luthier. The parameters of archings, top and back plates and how they 'talk' to one another is the topic of the ongoing lineage of luthiers over the generations.
    The wood is also a factour. Early Strads were built from billets of the same massive tree, and when that was exhausted, the wood changed (evidenced by ring pattern) and he changed his archings to the high tubular that marked his greatest period.
    All of this (please pardon the long answer) is to say that arching patterns are not formulaic, and measurements taken from a laminated pressed top will not be right for solid woods...IF you want any chance at tap tuning.
    I don't know about L-4CES but if they were built in the line and not tuned individually (like the work of the Gibson master luthiers), you can take readings off of one of those and get you in the ball park. Archings can also effect the necessary neck angle though the adjustable archtop bridge will help you there, and even there, breakover angles will be a consideration (prewar Gibson archtops had a shallower neck angle than post-war guitars which have a different feel and string requirement.

    Just a few thoughts, take it or leave it.

  6. #5

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    Hi Jimmy, thank you for this very clear response. I can certainly move forward with this. With the 'dome' I do indeed mean 'arching patern' (I'm fairly new to archtop world and Google translate is not always very accurate from Dutch ?). I now know how to proceed; thank you very much.

  7. #6
    Floyd, I have already commented on your post at MIMF but I want to expand on it here. I was asked to build "an acoustic guitar that looks like an ES175" but would not have any pickups. I'm primarily a flat top builder so I applied what I knew and used the ALS plans for the general body shape and molds. The guitar is Lutz spruce over mahogany, basically what I did was force the top ad back plates into my 16 inch radius dish for doming. The top was slightly less than 1/8 thick, I X braced it and added a transverse brace and a small bridge plate

    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_1574-jpg

    The back is very normal ladder braced for 16 foot radius.

    It has a dovetail neck with a small wedge to get the correct angle and overstand for a commercial bridge

    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_1629-jpg

    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_1656-jpg

    The guitar was intended to not be plugged in but since I had no idea how it was going to sound I decide to hedge things and install a sound board pieze pickup - it was now while the back was off or never

    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_1617-jpg

    The jack was tucked inside with a little pull string while the box was closed and finished (I'll add that the pickup has not been used)

    Guitar came out fine - it is a reasonable acoustic archtop sound. However it would have also been very easy to float a pickup off the end of the neck or to add whatever kind of bracing was needed for one or more pickups on the top

    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_2111-jpgEs-175/l-4 ces-img_2117-jpg

  8. #7
    To the post above I'll add a couple more thoughts. First, I have built a 17 inch single cut ES style guitar with laminated plates. The plates had 5/8 inch arching and I put two fairly large spruce "braces" down the guitar to support the humbuckers.

    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_3525-jpgEs-175/l-4 ces-img_3544-jpgEs-175/l-4 ces-img_3575-jpgEs-175/l-4 ces-img_3577-jpg

    And just finished a 16 inch carved acoustic archtop with Benedetto's arching and top thickness

    Es-175/l-4 ces-img_7088-jpgEs-175/l-4 ces-img_7093-jpgEs-175/l-4 ces-img_7367-jpgEs-175/l-4 ces-img_7379-jpg

    If you were not carving a top I would say that will limit you to what you can force into the wood, if you are carving or laminating you can make it anything you want. Be sure to lay out the neck angle and overstand to allow for the bridge and action you want to use.

  9. #8

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    Hi Freeman, thank you very much for your comments on this and the other forum. I am impressed with what you show me through the photos; especially the idea of ??using a radius dish to get a curve is something that I can take into account in subsequent projects. I already understood from Barry Daniels (MIMF-forum reply) that when using two humbucker pickups, the degree of curvature is not very important. I'm going to mount the pickups as you showed in the picture of your 17” guitar. Of course more photos to inspire my project are very welcome.

  10. #9

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  11. #10

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  12. #11

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    Thank you so much for these valuable contributions Arno. I was familiar with Ken Parker's YouTube videos but somehow never watched the one you posted in your comment untill now. Very enlightening. Thanks.

  13. #12

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  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by arno_byr
    Great video. But what I came away with is how self centered he is. To criticize JD and JA was totally unexpected. Those guys were king’s, and didn’t exist during the time when exquisitely made archtop’s sold for $50k minimum. Get over yourself. Or not.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Great video. But what I came away with is how self centered he is. To criticize JD and JA was totally unexpected. Those guys were king’s, and didn’t exist during the time when exquisitely made archtop’s sold for $50k minimum. Get over yourself. Or not.
    I'm with you Greg. He makes it sound like his instruments are a big advancement. I thought the old L5 sounded way better. His sounded tinny and like the strings were rattling against the frets.

  16. #15

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    for those that watched it what part did he rail on the DA/Q's? It wears me out listening to him and I'm lazy

  17. #16

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    The video is interesting for its subject (which is quite unique on the YouTube channels) and for the huge knowledge of Ken Parker himself.

    As an archtop builder, he seems to be "iconoclastic" . So I wasn't surprised by his purpose first.

    Now, from a business side, he competes in the same league as the two "kings" he seems to overcritisises, according to you (because I don't get all the subtleties of the english language).

    From this side, I agree with you.
    Last edited by arno_byr; 12-24-2022 at 07:21 AM.

  18. #17

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    I have been building archtop guitars for over 3 decades but I don't do it as a living. I'm still always building, but not with the output to support any kind of lifestyle. Why? Because being a successful luthier is 20% building chops and skill and 80+% hype, promotion, running to gigs to show and inflate your mystique...that's not me.
    For a while, it seemed that no matter who I was going to see, there was Ken Parker with his newest version of something. He put a guitar in Bill Frisell's hands, a bass in Steve Swallow's, all as promotion of himself. He's got what it takes to be a guitar-maker in this business. He uses his lutherie skills to stoke the machine that makes him into a legend.
    You're seeing him at work.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    for those that watched it what part did he rail on the DA/Q's? It wears me out listening to him and I'm lazy
    starting around 59:30

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    for those that watched it what part did he rail on the DA/Q's? It wears me out listening to him and I'm lazy
    The conversation about DA begins at 47:40

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by arno_byr
    The video is interesting for its subject (which is quite unique on the YouTube channels) and for the huge knowledge of Ken Parker himself.

    As an archtop builder, he seems to be "iconoclastic" . So I wasn't surprised by his purpose first.

    Now, from a business side, he competes in the same league as the two "kings" he seems to overcritisises, according to you (because I don't get all the subtleties of the english language, forgive me).

    From this side, I agree with you.
    You’re absolutely right. Listen to him talk about me,me, me. And I absolutely hate his headstocks!

  22. #21

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    I've never played or heard one in person, but I don't like the way Ken Parker's archtops sound, especially compared to the 1927 L5 that was also in the above video.

  23. #22

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    Yes, but you're comparing it with the holy grail of jazz guitar :

  24. #23

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    what do you think about Aaron Cowles video, shows on the Kalamazoo museum site?

    Those videos are precious, when you 're beginning at the archtop making.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by arno_byr
    what do you think about Aaron Cowles video, shows on the Kalamazoo museum site?

    Those videos are precious, when you 're beginning at the archtop making.
    He plays in a country-folk style and it sounds great!

    I wrote my opinion on the Parker archtop with the caveat that I haven't played or heard one in person, and that's a big caveat. One should never finalize an opinion on youtube videos. If a Parker archtop were to magically appear in front of me I would play the hell out of it!

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by arno_byr
    Well, I was more thinking about this video.
    Last edited by arno_byr; 12-24-2022 at 07:53 AM.