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  1. #1

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    A nice sunday brain cracker for the tinkerers among ye

    Consider these tuners (I think originally made by Framus):


    Those posts are almost 1cm in diameter.

    And my current attempt to increase post diameter using a double layer of shrink-wrap (here to make it more friendly to nylon strings):
    Capping tuning posts?-wrapped-post-jpg

    As you can see the wrap gets squeezed off the peg, becoming too thin to be very effective, and also slips around the peg.
    (The crazy amount of string windings is because this particular kind of E string has an insane amount of stretch.)

    Supposing they don't exist as an off-the-shelf item, how would one add caps onto these standard Grover tuners to make them thicker, with some material that's touch enough to resist string tension (and cutting), adheres well enough to the post that it doesn't slip but not so permanently that it cannot be removed?

    Having let my thoughts wander I see 2 approaches:
    - find a bushing of appropriate dimensions (in a not-too-hard material), cut to length, drill a hole, fix using some kind putty or even wood paste and push a toothpick through before that putty has gone too hard
    - use some transparent plastic or silicon tubing of the appropriate inner dimension, slip over the post, up with wood paste or UV resin, push a toothpick through, and (let) cure.

    For that 2nd approach I could try the clear (blueish) vinyl tubing I've got lying around; approx. 1mm thick with a 1 cm outer diameter (so an 8mm inner diameter). That will probably get squeezed too, though, and it's so flexible that it'll be a challenge to drill a hole at exactly the right location.

    Thanks!
    R.

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  3. #2

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    Just tie the string into a knot.

  4. #3

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    I'm not certain what good that is going to do?!

    Here's someone else's take on it (which would require taking off my tuners because there's no way you're going to get the caps off):



    Also not sure how I'd find bushings to protect the wood.

  5. #4

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    Isn’t the underlying problem the strings are slipping? Knotting the string at the peg will stop that.

  6. #5

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    No, my problem is string breakage due to the too-tight winding. The trebles in the pic but even the wound D string don't appreciate that and will break at the peg long before they'd otherwise be toast. Just like a steel E will if it's de/retuned too often.

  7. #6

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    This would also increase the effective tuning ratio of the peg. So tuning would be more precise and require less effort at the knob.

  8. #7

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    Exactly. I can frankly only see advantages - and I never got the principle behind the thinner part where the string goes on (except *possibly* preventing slippage).

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    This would also increase the effective tuning ratio of the peg. So tuning would be more precise and require less effort at the knob.
    Less precise? Each turn of the knob would put more string on the post, i.e increase tension more

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    I'm not certain what good that is going to do?!

    Here's someone else's take on it (which would require taking off my tuners because there's no way you're going to get the caps off):



    Also not sure how I'd find bushings to protect the wood.
    I would create a bushing that slips on the existing post. First I would try to see if I could get away by using the string to hold the bushing in place, i.e thread the string through matched hole in bushing and post. If that didnt work Id use a small setscrew in the bushing that goes into the hole in the post, and probably a hole or slit in the bushing above the post to thread the string in.

    I have several lathes, and I would not try it without one.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt
    Less precise? Each turn of the knob would put more string on the post, i.e increase tension more
    Sorry - you’re correct. Increasing the diameter of the post increases the linear movement of a point on its circumference for every degree you turn the knob. Increasing the diameter and number of teeth on the gear at the base of the shaft would reduce the linear excursion around the post per degree. I’m on vacation and doing this while talking to my wife and our friends. Shoulda paid more attention to the task!

  12. #11

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    Are you breaking strings on the edge of the hole the string passes through?

  13. #12

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    Spend money. Buy these Schertler tuners. They come in black or gold, as well.
    Attached Images Attached Images Capping tuning posts?-schertler-jpg 

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Spend money. Buy these Schertler tuners. They come in black or gold, as well.
    For 120 euro thats what I would do. They look nice as well

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by EastwoodMike
    Are you breaking strings on the edge of the hole the string passes through?
    No - see TI/brass plated trebles.

    Quote Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt
    I would create a bushing that slips on the existing post. First I would try to see if I could get away by using the string to hold the bushing in place, i.e thread the string through matched hole in bushing and post.
    This is basically what I am doing with my shrink-wrap approach, with the added "fixation" of crimping the wrap tightly around the post. It would probably work for (not too thin) metal strings but a nylon high E is too thin and flexible and thus allows a certain amount of slip. As far as I can tell that slippage stops (like on R2R tape-decks where you'd just wind the tape over itself without even letting the tip stick out) but it's a bit annoying to have to realign post and bushing when you want to remove the string.

    Not really certain why you need a lathe unless you're making your own bushings? I don't have one, nor do I have a vertical drill which I'm probably going to need to enlargen the headstock holes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammertone
    Spend money. Buy these Schertler tuners. They come in black or gold, as well.
    Anyone else notice something weird about the posts of those Schertler tuners? The hole is way too low and would barely come above the bushing. Are you certain those aren't for a slotted headstock?
    EDIT: yep, they are. They also have the steel string version which (as expected) has the thinner post but the hole in approximately the same position. It should be free of headstock and bushing (15 mm from the base plate according to the schematics) but it would still oblige me to wind the string upwards on the post

    Apparently the original (or reissue) Framus tuners can be found as well here in Europe:


    For the nylon-string resonator (the main patient in this matter) I could also opt for geared "pegheads" as used on flamenco guitars. I actually have 1 for testing which should only require the use of a reamer, but that'd mean giving up the possibility to use the guitar with steel strings (and "only using a reamer" is probably underestimating how tricky that will be).

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    No - see TI/brass plated trebles.



    This is basically what I am doing with my shrink-wrap approach, with the added "fixation" of crimping the wrap tightly around the post. It would probably work for (not too thin) metal strings but a nylon high E is too thin and flexible and thus allows a certain amount of slip. As far as I can tell that slippage stops (like on R2R tape-decks where you'd just wind the tape over itself without even letting the tip stick out) but it's a bit annoying to have to realign post and bushing when you want to remove the string.

    Not really certain why you need a lathe unless you're making your own bushings? I don't have one, nor do I have a vertical drill which I'm probably going to need to enlargen the headstock holes.



    Anyone else notice something weird about the posts of those Schertler tuners? The hole is way too low and would barely come above the bushing. Are you certain those aren't for a slotted headstock?
    EDIT: yep, they are. They also have the steel string version which (as expected) has the thinner post but the hole in approximately the same position. It should be free of headstock and bushing (15 mm from the base plate according to the schematics) but it would still oblige me to wind the string upwards on the post

    Apparently the original (or reissue) Framus tuners can be found as well here in Europe:


    For the nylon-string resonator (the main patient in this matter) I could also opt for geared "pegheads" as used on flamenco guitars. I actually have 1 for testing which should only require the use of a reamer, but that'd mean giving up the possibility to use the guitar with steel strings (and "only using a reamer" is probably underestimating how tricky that will be).
    I’d make my own bushings, just assuming I could not find a ready made part with tight enough fit


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  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt
    I’d make my own bushings, just assuming I could not find a ready made part with tight enough fit
    That could certainly save you a long quest.

    The polyvinyl hose (from a tree-sap tapping kit) I mentioned does have the ideal dimensions. I've been able to coax it over the existing shrink-wrap bushing and then it was easy to drill 2 holes in it. I didn't fill up the internal space so evidently this "soft-shell bushing" also got squished when I put a string back on (a steel E would probably cut right through). I'm guessing that would also have happened to some extent if I had used a hardening filler but we'll see how this works out. My guess is that it should be fine until I have to replace the string - which can be months in absence of breakage.

    It does look a bit weird, but I've seen enough professionals playing instruments with odd bits and pieces various reasons not to bother ... who's going to look at it anyway

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    Apparently the original (or reissue) Framus tuners can be found as well here in Europe:
    So these are actual NoS Framus parts, which require a rivet with an 11mm outer diameter.

    I 'd prefer just to enlargen the existing holes concentrically which should be easier (?) but
    - what is the minimum distance to keep the edge, for holes this size?
    - there are going to be strings touching the posts of other strings, possibly all 4 inner strings, and from the looks of it not just barely touching (which could cause buzzing). Will that be an issue?

    These considerations evidently apply to home-made tuners with 10mm posts too.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt
    I’d make my own bushings, just assuming I could not find a ready made part with tight enough fit
    You can get small bore SS tubing in a wide variety of IDs and ODs, eg from McMaster Carr. Measure the maximum OD of the post and get a short length with an ID two or three thousandths larger and whatever OD you want. Measure for hole positioning and length, drill the holes, cut to length, and slip it on.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    You can get small bore SS tubing in a wide variety of IDs and ODs, eg from McMaster Carr. Measure the maximum OD of the post and get a short length with an ID two or three thousandths larger and whatever OD you want. Measure for hole positioning and length, drill the holes, cut to length, and slip it on.
    I think I looked into buying from them once, but it just wasnt feasible from Europe. If I found ready made tubing I’d use it, but in my experience one rarely does. The id of tubing is rarely specified with low tolerance, and with a weld seem its often not even a perfect circle.

    So yeah, if I could I would but I dont like the odds

  21. #20

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    There must be sources for this in Europe too and if not you should be able to find it on alieexpress. The description of the tubing linked to suggests it could be used in medical applications so I think the tolerances should be more than good enough. You'd just have to make certain if the inner weld protrudes takes anything off the specified diameter and that the seam is perfectly smooth on the outside. But there's no need for perfect roundness here, or for it to be installed perfectly on-centre.

    I would prefer to use a metal that's not harder than my strings, though.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt
    The id of tubing is rarely specified with low tolerance, and with a weld seem its often not even a perfect circle.
    You want DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubing - it’s seamless. And the tolerances on small precision tubing are very tight. This stuff is made for scientific, medical and similar use.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    You want DOM (drawn over mandrel) tubing - it’s seamless. And the tolerances on small precision tubing are very tight. This stuff is made for scientific, medical and similar use.
    Well, I have lathes and I know how to use them, so that would be my choice.

    If any of you guys want to prove that it can be done with some degree of quality using pipes, tuning, or dental floss, go ahead.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt
    Well, I have lathes and I know how to use them, so that would be my choice..
    Unfortunately, most of us aren’t so well equipped and must look to more practical alternatives. I had to sell my shop, which included a South Bend lathe and a Jet vertical mill, when we sold the house and downsized to an apartment in retirement. And most on JGO have basic or no fabrication skills - so your choice (although ideal) is simply not a reasonable suggestion for them.

    With hand and small power tools, DOM tubing is a simple and very effective way to do this. A center punch, small drill, vise, hacksaw and file will enable simple and effective fabrication of post sleeves.

  25. #24

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  26. #25

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    Turns out Amazon has a large offering of tubing that should be useful (e.g. 8mm OD with 0.5-1mm thick walls) in copper, brass, but also carbon fibre. The metal ones are mostly for craft projects (e.g. carillons), the carbon fibre as replacement parts for drones.

    The posts of my tuners are just over 6mm from what I can tell; with a bit of luck tubing with a 6mm ID will have a snug enough fit to make the use of epoxy redundant. Some heat could increase the ID to fit if it just doesn't at room temps (for metal tubing), or else just a drop of CA.

    I wonder if the CF ones would be appropriate for use with nylon strings though - seems tricky to make a smooth hole in those.
    (My parents bought garden chairs with *glass* fibre in the armrests. They quickly became unbearable for my skin because of that.)