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Surprised to see even the flatwound AC19 G string already ate into the fret!
Fretboard edge looks OK to me?
Last edited by RJVB; 07-08-2022 at 03:26 PM.
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07-08-2022 03:09 PM
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Forgot: my 13" high E broke yesterday when unwinding it (1st time for me), the replacement broke today when it was almost up to tune. I was down to 1 unused 13" wire, so I fixed an extension to the hardly used broken string so the bit that had between between nut and peg now went onto the roller. Extensions made from a loop of wire string stretch while they settle of course; I could tune the string back up twice and then it broke too.
The 16" B string has now been released and brought back up to tune at least 4 times and I'd swear 11" and 12" E strings can also usually be reused. I would have expected a 13" to be more robust, so should I worry about an issue with my tuner? They're Grovers, and I can't feel any rougness.
On my resonator I have shrunk double layers of heat-shrink wrapper over a number of pegs that proved to be too thin for nylon strings. Works find even if they do slip a bit while tuning up, I'm afraid though that a steel E will just cut through the material... I wonder if this is why vintage German archtops often have tuners with thicker pegs!
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The ZG nut shouldn't require much effort to remove, just a tap, unless way too much CA glue was used. A tiny drop or two is sufficient. The fret shouldn't be hard to remove from the nut either. But looking closely at the photos, I see why it was hard. Looks like it was completely flooded with CA, about a hundred times more than needed. About 2 tiny drops on both the fret and the bottom of the nut is sufficient. As for the bottom of the nut, careful sanding is the only way I know of. Run the nut across sandpaper secured to a level surface. Careless sanding can give a crooked surface.
I can't tell much about the end of the fretboard from a rather blurry photo. If you think it's fine, it probably is. It can be trued up a little with a file or a chisel if necessary, being very careful. Maybe it's not necessary. I can't tell if the G string has gone into the fret, or if that's just a lot of CA adhesive. I suspect the latter, but it's hard to tell.
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I agree, there was a lot of CA on the nut. It looks like an amateur job while this guy is all but that. Don't know what happened there (I do know I was chatting with a pal who had just arrived, while the job was being finalised ... probably shouldn't have done that because I know it would distract me too).
Sorry for the pictures with less than ideal depth of field. My dSLR with macro lens is still in storage (and would probably not have given better DoF).
Anyway I think that the edge is sharp enough that the 0 fret will cover and touch it well enough. The sound of the open strings was already improved with the huge, floating fret
I've ordered this: https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B07XHJ6C19 but I could imagine that you'd need to put the nut in a vise to get the bottom to be perpendicular to the front end again...
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You can move the sander over the nut, or the nut over the sander, same result, it mostly depends on the tools you have. Care is needed in either case. A flat file works, but sandpaper is quicker.
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I suppose it must be a lot easier to keep the bottom flat and at a 90° angle than to restore that angle, grinding by hand. After all that's how it got skewed in the first place.
I'm going to figure something out and assume that having a perfect 90° angle isn't crucial to function here.
I don't want to keep throwing money at this, so I'll try to get this one installed properly rather than buying a new ZG plus the remaining nut files.
And now that I have the proposition to come and do the fret dress & level under guidance I'll be asking the same for any future set-up and maintenance that I cannot already do at home
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Its not so hard to sand it flat and 90 degrees. Double side tape 80 grit sandpaper to a flat surface, color the bottom with a lead pencil, do 10 strokes with the nut oriented with the long side in the direction of the stroke, check bottom, re color, turn nut 90 degress, repeat.
Originally Posted by RJVB
I suppose it must be a lot easier to keep the bottom flat and at a 90° angle than to restore that angle, grinding by hand. After all that's how it got skewed in the first place.
I'm going to figure something out and assume that having a perfect 90° angle isn't crucial to function here.
I don't want to keep throwing money at this, so I'll try to get this one installed properly rather than buying a new ZG plus the remaining nut files.
And now that I have the proposition to come and do the fret dress & level under guidance I'll be asking the same for any future set-up and maintenance that I cannot already do at home
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90 degrees is not always the angle between the end of the fretboard and the headstock. It should be, but that's not always the case. Sometimes it's a slightly larger angle. You have to keep taking a little off and retrying the fit, rinse and repeat.
If you take too much off the bottom of the nut, a shim under it will fix the problem.
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After an afternoon of careful work I'm almost there. I did have to take off material from the "bottom ridge" for some reason, and I had nothing better for that than the small blade of a Victorinox pocketknife... Now the fret (the "purple" one I had eye-balled) rests on the fretboard (a 0.07mm feeler no longer fits underneath, is that good enough?). I've brought the 5 lower strings up to tension yesterday evening, with nothing glued in place and the fret uncut, to leave things a chance to settle and then test for buzzing. Nothing of the sort yesterday, and open strings sounded louder and fuller.
I think the purple fret is still a smidge wider and higher than the ones on the guitar but the action at the nut feels perfect; almost homeopathic clearance at the 1st fret when I hold down at the 3rd.
I also want to displace the 2 E string slots that somehow ended up just too much to the inside, despite haven taken the spacing from the old slot. Is going to be an interesting exercise to recut them after the soda+CA trick...
I'm welcoming experience-based advice on this, on how to cut the fret (before or after glueing? Held down just by the string tension?) and on the glueing itself. Chris glued the fret to the nut, and then the nut into the guitar, but I thing the fret ridge on the nut isn't perfectly parallel with the fretboard over the entire width so I think the chance for a perfect fit is higher when I glue the nut first. And then somehow prevent glue stains. Existential problem
How about red or even green Loctite (threadlocker), types of superglue that don't get completely hard and not as fast so the fret can still get its final seating from string pressure?
BTW: I bought this fret cutter, looks any good?
https://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B07XQ8CQZG
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I cut the fret to length first, then file and polish the ends. It's not the only way, it just seems easier to me, and safer for the fretboard and nut edges. It's different from a standard fret/refret job. But whatever works, works.
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I suppose you use some kind of marker to indicate where to cut? Originally Posted by sgosnell
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I just hold it across the end of the fretboard. The initial cut is not critical, because I then file/sand it to the exact length by laying it in place, refiling, repeat, until it's right. That's not the only way, as I said, it's just how I've come to do it. The cut with the nippers distorts the end of the fret, and I like to remove that distortion with files, so I cut it a little long.
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I followed the instructional videos more or less, in the end. A pencil (as per the instructions) of course leaves a barely visible mark, so for the 2nd I just aligned the cut end with the nut and grabbed the fret with the nipper against the other side of the nut. I chose one with an asymmetric cut so the business end of the fret isn't distorted at all and needed barely any filing.
The nut groove in my guitar is apparently not entirely flat (it cuts a bit deeped into the neck at the bass side which explains why the fretboard is just visibly thinner there). As a result there's a tiny gap under the nut on that side, and my initial glueing attempt with minimal drops failed (no proper contact). Maybe that's why Chris ended up using too much glue (still no excuse of course). Me of course I had to forget that the tiny drop I put on the rear of the nut would remain partly on the headstock from which I had just removed the protective tape ... and then I had to forget my glasstop scraper would probably be perfect to remove most of that glob without also removing some finish, but I got most of that buffed away (with a dab of a black permanent marker to make my historic war scar a bit less obvious).
Moving the nut slots was relatively easy - fortunately I had put on tape to prevent glue from getting anywhere it shouldn't because the bottle my thin version lives in doesn't really allow subtle dosing despite nozzles with a very tiny opening (and which seem to be single use). I filled up the high E slot in a single go and was a bit concerned it might crumble while cutting the new slot but it went fine. I was probably cutting bone against the filling with a MusicNomad file that also has grit on the sides, that's probably what I felt. Either way the slots are still on the inside of their respective tuners so the string is pulled against the exterior wall, i.e. bone, not a baking soda cement.
BTW, putting the soda in goes very well with a piece of laserprinter paper with a sharp fold in it.
Overall action has clearly become lower: I'm going to move the saddle forward a tiny bit (2ct or so).
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That looks a lot better than the first photos. FWIW, I prefer UV resin for nut fills instead of CA, because it doesn't set immediately, and any excess can be wiped off. More can be added on top of the first fill if necessary. If no UV light is available, sunlight has plenty.
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I've read about the UV resin before (maybe in one of your replies) but basically cheaped out. Getting excess CA off the top of a bone nut isn't an issue (I had taped off the cut-out for the 0 fret). If that resin has a longer shelf life than CA glue it'd be an option to keep in mind though (esp. if it can also be used for enamel repairs in cook ware?).
BTW, with a 0 fret of the same height as the other frets you presumably get the string touching the 1st fret if you hold it at the 3rd fret ("kissing but not French kissing" if you have a bit of relief)? There *may* be a tiny bit of buzz on the B string if I play it real hard with the thumb.
I haven't be playing much other than open strings (sliced a sliver off my LH middle finger nail and callous in the business area, just not drawing blood...) but I'm liking what I hear (and hoping it's not just because I'm playing in a cooler part of the house with floor tiles rather than cheap floating wood flooring). Sympathetic resonance seems to have more definition, and natural harmonics ring a bit better too. I think I'm starting to understand why my old German archtop had a fret wire embedded in the saddle!
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In fact, are you implying that soda + CA fills should NOT be built up in layers? I had planned to do that for the 0.056" wide low E slot but in retrospect I think I forgot. Probably a good thing given how I didn't manage to make small enough CA drops! Originally Posted by sgosnell
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UV resin, IME, does have a longer shelf life than CA. Keep it away from UV light and it can't cure. CA cures in air, especially moist air. I suppose CA could be built up in layers, but I haven't tried it. It's too messy. I just don't like it for most applications, but it does have its uses.
Fretting any two frets with one fret between them should have the string touching the fret between them, anywhere on the fretboard. The zero fret is no different from any of the others. If the string buzzes on the first fret, the zero fret is too low. The same buzz with heavy plucking should be present on any fret, and that can be removed by raising the action at the bridge. There is always a compromise. Different players have different touches, and some can get by with lower action than others. It's subjective. I like mine very low, and I play with a light touch. Playing chords with volume, without amplification, does require higher action. I can't tell you how high your action should be. But IME a straight fretboard, with little or no relief, gives the lowest action with the least buzz everywhere on the neck. Enjoy your guitar, and play fretted notes from time to time.
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I always understood CA to cure only on/between contact points, but maybe moisture in the air can be enough. I've already left bits of excess glue untouched in the hope it would cure and then be removable mechanically, but that never happened before I lost patience (a piece of thin, very absorbant paper can help to wick some of the thinner versions away though). I keep my stock in the fridge, and usually end up having to throw opened minitubes away with the remaining glue locked inside. I soaked an obstructed nozzle in ammonia for over 24h, and that didn't do squat either. So I concur: messy. But useful... Originally Posted by sgosnell
Mathematically speaking they cannot be on a straight line if the fretboard isn't perfectly straightFretting any two frets with one fret between them should have the string touching the fret between them, anywhere on the fretboard.
Of course, and I'm not asking you.I can't tell you how high your action should be. But IME a straight fretboard, with little or no relief, gives the lowest action with the least buzz everywhere on the neck.
Yeah, about time to get back to that. I'll spare everyone a picture of the scalped finger but I think I'll play my nylon stringer for a bit - it's a lot smaller too which isn't a bad thing given how hot it isEnjoy your guitar, and play fretted notes from time to time.
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The fretboard should be perfectly straight, IMO, and even if there is considerable relief, the difference between 3 frets is negligible. The frets also have to be perfectly level, of course. Try it on any 3 frets, anywhere on the fretboard, and see if there is a measurable gap over the center fret. On my guitars, there is none. If there is a gap anywhere, it's caused by unlevel frets.
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FWIW, this zero glide system makes no sense to me. A zero fret should be leveled like all the other frets on a guitar. You can’t just guess it kinda is level looking at three options, it has to be right. You have to be able to remove the bone string spacing thing so you can work the fret with a sanding beam and then re-crown it —like any fret. That’s the point.
I just don’t get this at all.
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I don't think anyone will claim that the system is a good one for building a guitar with a zero fret. It's a pretty good compromise for guitars that were not designed to have a zero fret, much easier than adding a "real zero fret". Originally Posted by rlrhett
I have no experience with the reworking and re-crowning of frets or why you do that but I could imagine that those are things you do to avoid refretting - and I can also imagine that it is very tricky to replace a single or just a few frets except for maybe the 1st fret. This ZG 0 fret is about just as easy to replace as it is to redo traditional nut slots - and you could presumably take it out and rework it off the guitar.
The only thing that I don't really appreciate is that apparently you cannot buy replacements in specific sizes. I hope that means they don't need to be replaced often enough (and nowadays you can buy a set of stainless 0 frets which should presumably last a lifetime and hopefully not sound any worse).
Yes, at least within practical tolerances (or in a plane parallel to the fretboard between the 2 frets). Originally Posted by thelostboss
For the rest I think sgosnell answered your questions in his last few posts above.
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