The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi
    Just wondering what the difference is between a laminate maple back and sides archtop is compared to an archtop with solid maple back and sides? Is the laminate option done to save costs and what would be the wood underneath the laminate be? plywood?
    Ive had guitars with laminate tops but not a carved top with laminate back and sides. Will it affect the acoustic sound and will it be better to fight feedback.
    Any info would be much appreciated im considering a slaman Johnny smith with floating pickup.Many thanks

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  3. #2

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    Good laminates use a central layer that's a proper tonewood in itself. That's often maple, so a laminate maple back would still be 100% maple.

    Common wisdom says that the acoustic soundquality of a laminate top is much less inferior compared to a solid top in archtops than in flattops. The difference between a good laminate and a solid back is really small in flattops; I have to assume this will be (even more?) so in archtops too. Laminate B&S should make the instrument less sensitive to changes in humidity and the like. It will "mature" less over time and with intensive playing, but the higher stability may mean it sounds better part of the time.
    That's all concerning the acoustic sound; I'd be surprised if it makes much of a difference at all on the electric sound.

    If we're taking about Daniel Slaman here I have to presume the laminate will be of a high quality.

  4. #3
    Hi, many thanks for that info its much appreciated and thanks for your time. I always assumed that laminate was associated with cheaper instruments and was done to reduce costs. I also assumed that laminate would be an inferior sound to solid wood instruments. Im not too fussed about the acoustic qualities.

  5. #4

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    Well that'd depend on your own playing, and the quality of the laminate. All plywoods are not created equally. There are laminates that high end Ibanez from Fujigen uses that are nicely resonant and even show the ability to "break in" over time. An old vintage JP20, like an old well worn in ES-175 will have an openness and warmth of a played in guitar. Not so much some of the heavier laminates from the Chinese factories and Indonesian factories.
    They're also physically heavier, bulkier as instruments on the scales. They will also dampen high and mid frequency sounds; they tend not to contribute to the overall resonance of a body. A solid top can be carved down to half the weight of the tops and backs alone and it's still got the strength and superior resonance if it's built well.
    A solid set of backs and sides can be tuned (tap tuned to the top if it's a solid top built by a good luthier) but that's not so much something you'll find in mid range solid construction.
    By the looks of the specs online, (know that I've never played a Slaman JS) it looks like a nice construction on the top, solid wood, X brace. Laminate sides and back won't stifle that, but they would tend not to work with the top either.
    It's up the the player to be able to decide whether that's even a factour.
    By the way, there are solid top, back and even tuned carved solid wood guitars that come from factories in China. They can be had at the moment for the price range you're looking. Try your options yourself if you can. There're good instruments out there, and your hands will know a match.
    Good luck

  6. #5

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    I think back and sides have very different acoustic functions. Sides aren't intended to be resonant. They function like drum shells (or amp cabinets).

    The resonance of the back on the the other hand is directly proportional to the volume of the bass notes. So a very resonant back in a full depth electric archtop can make the guitar very feedback prone.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heybopper
    I always assumed that laminate was associated with cheaper instruments and was done to reduce costs.
    This isn't wrong, esp. in an archtop where you don't have to spend all the time needed to carve out the back; the cost in wood is probably less too.

  8. #7

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    Laminates are used mostly to help prevent feedback. If you're going to be playing only acoustically, a solid back can make a small difference. If you're going to be playing amplified, the laminate back may be an asset. Laminates are not used solely for cheaper building, they have a useful function.

  9. #8

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    I believe Wes Montgomery used a 1960’s sharp cut L-5CES wish had laminate back and sides. I believe the purpose was to cut down on feedback issues. I’m not sure how long or if all Gibson Archtops used this construction during this time period.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Laminates are not used solely for cheaper building, they have another useful function.
    T,FTFY

    I never thought of it this way, but if even a laminate back can reduce the amount of feedback in electric playing, it should be safe to say it will also reduce the acoustic qualities. The question is how/which. It's not like you can easily swap out a feedback-reduciing laminate back for a carved back...


    (But the idea of a removable back was launched on the Delcamp forum recently, in a discussion about how to sterilise a guitar to make it safe for a recent bone marrow transplant patient)

  11. #10

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    It's a matter of priorities. If you must have a purely acoustic instrument, and plan to only play that way, then there are many choices available. If you play mostly amplified, then feedback resistance might be more important. You can certainly put a floating pickup on a fully solid guitar, and I have some of those. But you have to allow for the possibility of feedback when playing amplified. I'm not a gigging professional, so it's not a big issue to me. Different people have different priorities, and laminated backs aren't necessarily inferior, they just cater to different needs. You pays your money and you takes your choice.

  12. #11
    Hi
    many thanks for everyones help,time and advice its much appreciated. Its interesting too as I have had feedback issues with l5s, guild artist awards and yet no issues with a tal farlow or a borys b120. I didnt realize that it could be due to solid woods vs laminate. I decided to buy the slaman johnny smith that was on here and it turns out that that has a solid top, solid maple sides and a laminate back.
    I think I will still have issues as I use two amps and am always in small spaces and I have to sit right on top of my amps.
    I filled up my L5 with cotton as I heard pat Martino did. It worked a treat and didnt hugely affect the electric sound but its a shame to have to do it and it makes your guitar heavy.
    I wonder how Jonathan Kreisberg does it. He plays in what I would assume to be a loud ensemble with two amps. I know the 175 is laminate but still, I had issues with mine when played with a loud drummer.
    I dont really like the plugs or tape or balloon ideas but ill see how it goes with the slaman and if the laminate back makes much difference.
    I know thinlines are probably better but there isnt much around in the UK right now that isnt way over priced so I chose the slaman for the price and quality and just wondered why slama went for the laminate back.
    Thanks for all your help, cheers

  13. #12

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    Why use two amps in a small space? Amp placement is the most important factor in preventing feedback, IME. It needs to be on your left side, headstock pointing at it. But with two amps, that's going to be rather difficult. I think you'll like the Slaman, he has a stellar reputation.

  14. #13

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    Try using a smaller speaker like the Quilter Aviator 1x8” combo. This should give you enough volume and less feedback.
    Ive had great luck playing with a full Jazz quintet,etc. and my Elferink Tonemaster Archtop.

  15. #14

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    A 12" speaker goes into a feedback loop very easily, 10" a little less easy, and an 8" much less easily still. A tube amp with a 12" speaker is always looking for a way to squeal, and will do so given the slightest opportunity. A solid-state amp with 8" speaker needs a lot more encouragement. At least that's been my experience. Proper amp placement and constant muting of the strings by the hands helps whatever the amp/speaker combination.

  16. #15

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    Well all I know is although some tube amps sound great. Never had any issues in over 5 years with my Quilter 1x8” Aviator Combo. and it’s been on every kind of gig imaginable.
    It’s got lots of horsepower, and the speaker doesn’t lack in any bottom or mids either.

    Another plus is just hook up anther speaker for really loud rock band and outdoor venues. Oh yeah it’s 22 pounds!

  17. #16

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    I don't at all deny that some tube amps sound better than some solid-state amps. But in general, notwithstanding some outliers, tube amps tend to be more feedback prone than solid-state. Sound quality and feedback are not completely identical.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    I don't at all deny that some tube amps sound better than some solid-state amps. But in general, notwithstanding some outliers, tube amps tend to be more feedback prone than solid-state. Sound quality and feedback are not completely identical.
    If two amps, one SS and one tube, are played through the same speaker/cabinet, and one is more feedback prone than the other, then it must be due to differing frequency response, and that is mainly tone controls. Tone control circuits vary considerably, so even setting them the same, even "flat", could still represent a different response curve.

    Also, different guitars have different resonances, and so respond differently to different amps and tone control settings. Another thing is the venue. Different rooms will interact with all the above, differently.

  19. #18

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    Tube amps have audio output transformers, SS amps don't.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Tube amps have audio output transformers, SS amps don't.
    Not that it really changes the feedback though.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    I don't at all deny that some tube amps sound better than some solid-state amps. But in general, notwithstanding some outliers, tube amps tend to be more feedback prone than solid-state. Sound quality and feedback are not completely identical.
    Huh, I wonder why? I always thought it would be the resonant frequency of the diaphragm (in the case the guitar) being excited ‘out of damped control’
    I’m curious to know more.
    m

  22. #21

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    The guitar, the speaker, the cabinet, and the way they're connected are unquestionably the most important factors. But there are many contributing factors, and they all add up. It's complicated, messy, and difficult to tease out individual contributions from the many and constantly changing inputs. I still believe that tube circuits make feedback a little more likely.