The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I've had this Trenier archtop for more than a few years now and must admit that there is one thing that annoys me, and that is the part of the tailpiece on the rim through which the endpin Jack is located is thick and makes the strap button recessed and difficult to get the strap on properly.

    Is there a simple fix for this anyone? Like maybe about an extra 1/4"? Thanks
    Endpin Jack Extender-20220424_140202-jpg

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  3. #2

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    Endpin Jack Extender-20220424_142144-jpg

  4. #3

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    The jack is made up of a threaded shaft with nuts on both sides inside and outside the guitar, then a flatted strap button ferrule nut.
    Whether it's too much trouble or not, is your decision but:
    Remove the outer flange nut.
    Then insert a stick into the jack hole so you can pull it back out easily.
    Remove the outer lock nut, the jack will now drop freely into the guitar.
    Use the stick to position the jack to an F hole.
    Thread the inner lock washer and nut a few revs so more threads are showing on the "stick" end.
    Carefully pull the jack back out the hole, don't let it drop off.
    Thread the nut back on the shaft and snug it down.
    Take the stick out and replace the outer ferrule nut.
    Viola.

    And yes it's not the end of the world if it falls off the stick, but you can save yourself a LOT of time with this trick.
    I use a 1/4" dowel tapered and a little masking tape to really affix it to the inside of the jack. Then I'm REALLY careful and patient with my movements especially drawing it back out the last time.

    You can do it! Easy does it. A few threads at a time. It's worth the effort.
    Good luck!

  5. #4

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    Jimmy Blue Note,

    You are a true prince!

    Thank you!

    I can do it.
    I'll give it a whirl (or 2).
    Seems simple enough.

    Merci Beaucoup!

  6. #5

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    The other possibility is to remove one of the tailpiece screws and put a strap button where the screw came out. That works and allows a strap lock.

  7. #6

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  8. #7

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    Nice idea with the strap button! Even easier and less invasive: unscrew that outer flange nut just enough to fix some fishing line around the jack, securing it by retightening the nut. Fix up some kind of fastening system to attach your strap to that line, e.g. Frog (fastening) - Wikipedia which should work with the standard strap button hole.

  9. #8

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    All done!
    I removed the strap button ferrule nut and added a couple of nylon washers of the proper diameter and put the threaded strap button back on. There was enough threads that it's plenty secure.
    This, after trying to back the Jack assembly out. It wouldn't move.
    The local hardware store had an assortment of washers that I sorted through.
    Worked out great.
    Now, I don't have to fight my guitar to put on it's halter. Reminded me of my youth when trying to put the briddle/halter on the horse.

    Thanks everyone for your advice! It's very helpful.

  10. #9

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    I thought of proposing this solution but then realised it would probably make it imposibble to seat the jack plug correctly. Doesn't it?

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    I thought of proposing this solution but then realised it would probably make it imposibble to seat the jack plug correctly. Doesn't it?
    It was my thought too. The original situation resulted from there not being enough threads on the outside of the nut assembly on the shaft. Adding washers actually decreases the amount of threads for that ferrule nut to bite onto. I wouldn't have taken that route for risk that the decreased threading engaged, the greater the danger and possibiity that should that nut come loose, the disengagement would be disastrous.
    Now adding washers after moving the shaft out...that'd be the way to do that safely.
    There are less threads screwed into the nut and that nut is holding the guitar from falling into disaster. Not my first choice, but not my guitar either.

  12. #11

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    I'm just home from a bilateral inguinal hernia surgery this morning and catching up, so a bit out of sorts, and will have plenty of time to take another pass at this. The last thing I want to be is stupid, so, opinions and listening to others, especially where working on my most prized worldly possessions are concerned, like my archtops, are taken seriously. So, let me begin by saying thank you, and that I guess there's not an archtop equivalent to the product 'Extends', once advertised as the male enhancement remedy by 'Smiling Bob' on TV around the time of big time wrestling on Saturday's when we were kids.

    Jimmy Blue Note,

    My 1st choice would have been as you suggested. After taking the button ferrule nut, lock nut, and washer off, the shaft refused to 'drop freely' from the end block. After a couple of attempts to gently dislodge it, I stopped trying.
    Your cautionary advice is well taken. Thank you for that. Security IS a priority, and, As I've heard stated on many occasions, 'you're not being paranoid when they really are after you', or 'Penny wise, pound foolish'.

    I will endeavor to try and determine why the damn thing seems so inclined to tightness, and pursue the safe and preferred approach of using the end pen jack button.

    Marty,

    It might ultimately be that direction. I know the amount of tension on these TP screws is amazing, and I'm about due for a fresh set of strings and a cleaning. I can take it off when I do that, clean and inspect it, and drill one of the 3 screw holes for the bigger and longer screw that would be required for a button. One thing I don't like about doing it this way is that the button becomes asymmetric in location. And on the thick TP base would extend uncomfortably further into the case lining, and also won't fit down in the existing countersink channel. It still might work. We'll see.

    sgosnell,

    I don't think that's going to do it.

    RJVB,

    True! Good eye!

  13. #12

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    The endpin jack will not drop out of the block. That's not how it's designed, although there are different ways of installing it. You probably need to push it inside the body, fish it out of an f hole, adjust the nut on the back to allow it to extend further out, and then reinstall it in the block. That's not completely easy. I use a 1/4" plug, cut down to allow it to extend through the hole with cable extending back out, then plug it into the jack and pull it back out. It can be fiddly. A used guitar string through the jack can work, provided there is way to get it through the jack, which isn't often possible. The jack is designed to be held in place by the nut on the rear end, and that has to be adjusted precisely. But it's possible to just remove that nut and allow the jack to go all the way through the end block, held in place by just the external nut and washers. That's not an ideal way to do it, but it's not uncommon. The lock I linked to works great for using a standard straplock, but it does require the jack threads to extend far enough to screw it on. Sometimes it's possible to just screw the jack out, with the rear nut being held by an indent in the internal side of the endblock, thus adjusting the internal nut by turning the jack, not the nut. I would try that first, and you probably wouldn't have to turn it too many turns. Good luck with it.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by skykomishone
    I'm just home from a bilateral inguinal hernia surgery this morning and catching up, so a bit out of sorts, and will have plenty of time to take another pass at this. The last thing I want to be is stupid, so, opinions and listening to others, especially where working on my most prized worldly possessions are concerned, like my archtops, are taken seriously. So, let me begin by saying thank you, and that I guess there's not an archtop equivalent to the product 'Extends', once advertised as the male enhancement remedy by 'Smiling Bob' on TV around the time of big time wrestling on Saturday's when we were kids.

    Jimmy Blue Note,

    My 1st choice would have been as you suggested. After taking the button ferrule nut, lock nut, and washer off, the shaft refused to 'drop freely' from the end block. After a couple of attempts to gently dislodge it, I stopped trying.
    You've got to kinda sorta wedge that stick into the input jack, that dowel/stick should be maybe two feet long, and made even more snug by the presence of masking tape or something. It's got to wedge tight like the cable plug, only a lot longer and a lot more solid. Then PUSH the jack into the body, the dowel attached. Bring the jack, via the stick, to one of the F holes and then THAT's when you essentially move the shaft further out the body by moving the nut and washer further in...if you get my drift. Now you gently pull the stick and the attached jack back out the hole and thread the nut over the dowel and onto the shaft of the jack.
    And if the jack falls off the stick prematurely, don't worry. Stick the dowel in there, fish the loose jack to the F hole and resecure it. This is where you earn your merit badge for patience. There are ways you can also secure it with a fishing line loop and pull that way but that's not the way I've found to be easiest for me.
    The jack WILL need to be pushed into the guitar via the dowel and often a lockwasher will have secured itself into the end block, but a little push will free it. That's likely what you encountered.
    Good luck and feel free to PM me.
    By the way, my dowel is a trusty chop stick that serves an infinity of purposes on the work bench. I've done this operation a LOT because that problem of yours is very common...and a PAIN in the butt to set correctly. Much easier to say "Send it out. It works fine".

  15. #14

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    Got it!
    Thank you!
    I'll update this with future results.
    I like working on my own guitars.
    With a doctors oath!
    Cheers.

  16. #15

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    The best way to learn is to completely make a mess of something. That way you learn what not to do. After you learn all the things you shouldn't do, what is left is what you should do. I fear I still haven't learned all the things I shouldn't do, though. There always seems to be another way to go wrong.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    The best way to learn is to completely make a mess of something. That way you learn what not to do. After you learn all the things you shouldn't do, what is left is what you should do. I fear I still haven't learned all the things I shouldn't do, though. There always seems to be another way to go wrong.
    Totally agree, but I would add that its good to practice on the cheap stuff

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohanAbrandt
    Totally agree, but I would add that its good to practice on the cheap stuff
    Very True. Thanks Johan!

    Also very true is that we should all learn from one another. Dr. Spock once said, "Insufficient facts always invite danger".
    The beauty of the JGF Forum, The Builder's Bench, is the collection of "good practice" that is shared through the contribution of our members. When I'm confronted with a technical challenge to my limited luthier skills, there is a deep well of experience and judgement from which to draw. It's presented and received in an environment of mutual respect. I can sort through what I learn, and add to or correct what I think I know.. I like that, and feel comfortable with it.

    Peace

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by skykomishone
    I'm just home from a bilateral inguinal hernia surgery this morning and catching up, so a bit out of sorts, and will have plenty of time to take another pass at this. The last thing I want to be is stupid, so, opinions and listening to others, especially where working on my most prized worldly possessions are concerned, like my archtops, are taken seriously. So, let me begin by saying thank you, and that I guess there's not an archtop equivalent to the product 'Extends', once advertised as the male enhancement remedy by 'Smiling Bob' on TV around the time of big time wrestling on Saturday's when we were kids.

    Jimmy Blue Note,

    My 1st choice would have been as you suggested. After taking the button ferrule nut, lock nut, and washer off, the shaft refused to 'drop freely' from the end block. After a couple of attempts to gently dislodge it, I stopped trying.
    Your cautionary advice is well taken. Thank you for that. Security IS a priority, and, As I've heard stated on many occasions, 'you're not being paranoid when they really are after you', or 'Penny wise, pound foolish'.

    I will endeavor to try and determine why the damn thing seems so inclined to tightness, and pursue the safe and preferred approach of using the end pen jack button.

    Marty,

    It might ultimately be that direction. I know the amount of tension on these TP screws is amazing, and I'm about due for a fresh set of strings and a cleaning. I can take it off when I do that, clean and inspect it, and drill one of the 3 screw holes for the bigger and longer screw that would be required for a button. One thing I don't like about doing it this way is that the button becomes asymmetric in location. And on the thick TP base would extend uncomfortably further into the case lining, and also won't fit down in the existing countersink channel. It still might work. We'll see.

    sgosnell,

    I don't think that's going to do it.

    I've had no problem doing this and hadn't needed to drill out the tailpiece holes. I use a small strap lock button. The guitars fit into the case easily. Usually the stock screw is long enough to hold the button in because the screw seats deeply into it. The tension on the screws is actually not that much. The strings don't directly pull in a direction to back out the screw. There is a 90 degree angle involved.

    Here is an demo just for the viewers. I could have put this strap lock button where the original strap button is but wanted to show you where I put the strap lock buttons on my guitars with end jacks.

    Endpin Jack Extender-20220428_080146-jpgEndpin Jack Extender-20220428_080158-jpg

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    The best way to learn is to completely make a mess of something. That way you learn what not to do. After you learn all the things you shouldn't do, what is left is what you should do. I fear I still haven't learned all the things I shouldn't do, though. There always seems to be another way to go wrong.
    And the more you learn, the more you find out how little you know.

    When I was a teenager learning about cars, we’d go to the junkyard and buy the assembly in question (transmission, differential etc) for $5 or $10 and disassemble it to see how it worked and went together. We’d try our ideas and do a “rebuild” by putting the same old parts back in and make our mistakes on that one before tackling the car itself. I did this to the motor in the first car I rebuilt before actually rebuilding it, and have always used this approach with assemblies or efforts I never saw before or had trouble with in the past.

    It’s great to have a beater guitar on which to try things and practice the trickier maneuvers before taking the torch to your L-5

  21. #20

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    I never rebuilt any cars, because that would have required having a car to rebuild. Getting a car required money, which I didn't have. I did work in my father's radio/TV repair shop, and my specialties were hifi record changers, car radios, and outdoor antennas, which he didn't want to do. I don't know why, but I could look at a record changer, the type that dropped multiple disks one at a time and played them, and figure out how it worked, and how to fix and adjust it. It was all logical, not difficult to work out. It's the same for other mechanical devices, and for electronic too. Both software and hardware have to be built with some sort of logic. Having a beater guitar, or better, building your own, is a great idea. Doing anything for the first time on a valuable instrument is not a great idea.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    I never rebuilt any cars, because that would have required having a car to rebuild. Getting a car required money, which I didn't have.
    I was one lucky little guitarist! I grew up in Atlantic City, and it was still a cool and viable community well into the 1960s. We had great clubs and restaurants, many big and active hotels on the boardwalk, and a lot of private parties and organizations running open dances. So I got to cut my teeth on real gigs from the time I was 13 because there was always someplace to play rock, jazz, dance tunes, and even the blues. We made $10 each on the early ones, which was decent money for a high school freshman in 1960. By the summer of 1964, my trio made $300 a week playing 7 nights a week at the Golden Inn in Avalon, NJ. I made my college expenses plus my instrument and equipment costs with a little left over for wine and women (since I already had song).

    There were also old cars everywhere for $25 and up in decent running condition. But the first one I did was a “gift” from a friend’s older brother, who thought rebuilding cars was easy…….but he discovered that it wasn’t. So he gave it to my friend and me in pieces when we were 16. We had it running, licensed and inspected by the time we got our licenses the next year (NJ drove at 17) and we shared it until we sold it and made decent money on the deal.

    It was an MG-TD that had a bad motor. We bought a Volvo 544 from Stucker’s junkyard (now known as an automotive recycling center, so there are no more $50 cars) and figured out how to get the drivetrain into the MG (a common conversion at the time, with a lot of instructional articles to guide us). I didn’t know how to narrow the rear axle, so the rear wheels stuck out a bit and we had to carry two spare tires because I also wasn’t equipped to swap the rear brakes and hubs. After the MG, we did a truly ratty Jag XK120 coupe our senior year. I got my share from my partner in crime and he drove it for all 5 years of architecture school at MIT. I told him rain gutter would make great rocker panels, but he didn’t believe me at first

    I was able to buy a used 345 in 1960, and later swapped it for a gorgeous 175DN. I had a Magnatone with four 6L6s and 4 twelves, then a 15” Pro, and finally a B15N during 4 years in high school. So money was no problem for me, thanks to my guitar and my mechanical ability. In many ways, those were the good old days. But I love living in the 21st century even more!

  23. #22

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    MG,

    I did try that. I'll give it another look, maybe using the bottom flange screw. My hesitation there is it's way down at the bottom, about an inch from the rim. I'm not keen on that location. If you look closely at my first picture above, you will notice that the tailpiece flange on the side is tapered and very thick at the top, and thin like yours at the bottom. If I use the top screw, like yours, the button really protrudes. And, Trenier's TP screws are smaller in diameter than the Strap Button screw so will require a larger hole. The jury is still out. I was wanting to avoid drilling for the bigger screw, but that is what is required if I go that route.

    I'm going to think about it. I do like it on your guitar. Thanks Marty!

    Peace!

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass
    Endpin Jack Extender-20220428_080158-jpg
    Are those fine-tuners??

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    Are those fine-tuners??
    Fingers tailpiece, allows for the custom string by string adjustment of the breakover angle. One of those theoretical innovations I never found worked for me. Do they work for others out there?

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Fingers tailpiece, allows for the custom string by string adjustment of the breakover angle.
    I guess that must have an effect on pitch (too) ... but what's the main effect supposed to be?