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  1. #1

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    Hi,

    Does anyone have experience with the Foley bridges sold by AllParts, in particular the bone-insert version?

    https://www.allparts.uk.com/products...se-for-archtop

    I've found the dimensions for the all-ebony version (nearly identical to the stock bridge on my LH-650) but can't find them for this model.

    Also, what can I expect going from all wood to a bone-insert saddle, supposing the insert is well executed (is it?!)? All other things being equal, would I be looking at better dynamics and less high-frequency damping?
    And, how well suited are these for a fingerpicking acoustic player who likes to dig in when ff or more is required - are these saddles more prone to plucking the low strings right out of their slots?

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    Hi,

    Does anyone have experience with the Foley bridges sold by AllParts, in particular the bone-insert version?

    https://www.allparts.uk.com/products...se-for-archtop

    I've found the dimensions for the all-ebony version (nearly identical to the stock bridge on my LH-650) but can't find them for this model.

    Also, what can I expect going from all wood to a bone-insert saddle, supposing the insert is well executed (is it?!)? All other things being equal, would I be looking at better dynamics and less high-frequency damping?
    And, how well suited are these for a fingerpicking acoustic player who likes to dig in when ff or more is required - are these saddles more prone to plucking the low strings right out of their slots?
    I don't like the sound of them too brittle and bright. Might work if you guitar has a particular sound that needs to enhance this but otherwise for me nothing beats ebony , although rosewood is fine too. Bill Barker tried them on a few of his archtops and I just never found them as warm sounding, but it is a simple change.

  4. #3

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    That saddle should be no more prone to having the strings come out of the slots than any other, provided the slots are properly cut. You'll have to cut your own slots, apparently, like on most other archtop bridge saddles. A set of nut files should make it easy enough once you get the locations marked, but they will cost many times the price of the bridge. Cheaper possibilities exist, as discussed in your other threads, but they're also comparatively more difficult to use. In any case, the string slots would have to be cut into the bone somehow.

  5. #4

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    Kind of a stupid question actually, about the strings coming out of the slots. Evidently they shouldn't, if the slots are cut correctly (and I see no reason why that wouldn't be possible). I'd leave that to my luthier, just like the sanding down to match the top. Maybe some day I'll have a place where I can do that kind of thing myself...

    I've continued digging about this bridge; apparently it's the one also sold by StewMac. I found one report from someone who experienced a fuller sound with it, without even having adapted the base. That corresponds to what I'd expect, I think.
    I *can* imagine the sound becoming brighter because less high frequencies get absorbed (cf. maple resonator saddles with an ebony top) but "brittle" suggests a loss of low frequencies, and I don't see why that would happen.

    If brighter trebles also means a more nasal character (like flattop trebles), then I better stay clear...

    @deacon Mark: have you ever tried tiny bone inserts in an ebony saddle, just to protect the wood from string wear? Violin bridges sometimes have that for the steel E string, which tends to cut into the wood.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by RJVB
    Kind of a stupid question actually, about the strings coming out of the slots. Evidently they shouldn't, if the slots are cut correctly (and I see no reason why that wouldn't be possible). I'd leave that to my luthier, just like the sanding down to match the top. Maybe some day I'll have a place where I can do that kind of thing myself...

    I've continued digging about this bridge; apparently it's the one also sold by StewMac. I found one report from someone who experienced a fuller sound with it, without even having adapted the base. That corresponds to what I'd expect, I think.
    I *can* imagine the sound becoming brighter because less high frequencies get absorbed (cf. maple resonator saddles with an ebony top) but "brittle" suggests a loss of low frequencies, and I don't see why that would happen.

    If brighter trebles also means a more nasal character (like flattop trebles), then I better stay clear...

    @deacon Mark: have you ever tried tiny bone inserts in an ebony saddle, just to protect the wood from string wear? Violin bridges sometimes have that for the steel E string, which tends to cut into the wood.
    Barker laminate a piece bone over the ebony saddle so it actually had the lower half of the saddle as ebony.

    I have never worried about ebony saddles wearing down from strings. My 37 D'a was the same ebony saddle it is 85 years old no wear really. Strings been change how many times?

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    My 37 D'a was the same ebony saddle it is 85 years old no wear really. Strings been change how many times?
    Yeah, I keep hearing that.

    My guitar has hardly been played from what I can tell, and according to the serial number it's from 2017. But:

    - the low E slot showed an imprint of the string winding which may have been 1 source of buzzing (more of a ring actually).
    - the slots of the 3 highest strings, the B in particular, are too wide. I've been slipping pieces of aluminum under the strings to reduce buzzing, not really fixing it completely.

    It's possible of course that this isn't normal string wear (the low E imprint must be the result of not being played). Or maybe the ebony only looks to be of good quality (it's very and homogenously dark); the imprint was easy to remove with just an old low E.

  8. #7

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    The slots of the treble strings were probably cut too wide, through carelessness or ignorance. But even wide saddle slots should not cause buzzing. Slots cut at the wrong angle, perhaps with the front lower than the rear, can cause it. The top of the saddle can be sanded down to remove all the slots and then reslotted if necessary. It's some work, but it's possible. It would lighten it by a small amount, and perhaps change the geometry, depending on whether the sides are recut, which could be good or bad.

  9. #8

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    That's another possibility - cutting too wide or deep can happen to the best (the B-string nut slot is proof of that).

    Maybe one can make "cast" bone inlays by filling the slots with a bone-dust/superglue mixture and then re-cut them just like one does with worn nut slots?

    The piece of aluminum (from the thickish kind of opercule you find on tubes of balm or toothpaste) I currently have between the B string and the saddle seems to mute the sound a bit really high up. Probably me hearing things because I know I've been meddling.

    All in all I'm beginning to lean towards getting an official replacement assuming that'll give me a bridge with 2 interchangeable saddles, and then have the old one either capped with bone or converted to a bone insert "craddle". There looks to be enough "meat" on it for that, and it provides all the important parameters (radius, compensation, height).

  10. #9

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    You can use cyanoacrylate (superglue) or my preference, UV resin, to fill the slots and recut them. No need to completely fill them, just a partial fill will do, and also maintain the spacing, depending on how much fill is needed. I would not use aluminum or anything similar inserted into a slot. The sound will suffer.

  11. #10

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    OK, thanks.

    I find there's very little effect of thin bits of alu foil, as long as it's cut and aligned really well with the front and back of the slots, and string tension is high enough. On my resonator I use a bit of paper under the high E to mellow its sound a little bit; works perfectly.

  12. #11

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    If you don’t notice a difference with tin foil and paper, what makes you think you will notice a difference with bone?

  13. #12

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    I do notice a difference with paper, at least under nylon trebles.

    I'm sure I won't notice a difference with a paper-thin sliver of bone. I expect that to change when we're starting to talk about more than a few mm.

  14. #13

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    Ah, I misunderstood what you said.

  15. #14

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    As I said above, I read a post by someone who had checkout a bone-insert bridge without adapting the base (and presumable with 6 nicks just deep enough to keep the strings in place). I hear that these bridges are usually precarved to a generic arch; is there much risk in loading it without first adapting it?

    If not, saves paying a luthier (or spending, what, a few hours?) to match the bridge to the top only to discover you dislike the sound...

  16. #15

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    There is no danger that I know of in not having the base match the top perfectly, other than perhaps to the tone. The difference in tone between a perfectly fitted base and one not fitted at all can be rather dramatic. Bridge bases with two feet, instead of completely solid, are common, and can change the sound a lot. Sometimes for the worse, sometimes for the better, and I still can't accurately predict which will sound better to me. It shouldn't take hours to fit a bridge base, unless you're a really slow sander, or the base is convex instead of concave on the bottom. FWIW, I ordered a bridge with bone insert from ebay, just to see what it would sound like. I have one archtop that could stand a slightly brighter tone. The seller's specs say the pole spacing is 73mm, which is a standard TOM spacing. I really need wider, to match most of my existing bases, but I may have to just sand the new one to fit. I need new sandpaper, but that's cheap enough.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    FWIW, I ordered a bridge with bone insert from ebay, just to see what it would sound like. I have one archtop that could stand a slightly brighter tone. The seller's specs say the pole spacing is 73mm, which is a standard TOM spacing. I really need wider, to match most of my existing bases, but I may have to just sand the new one to fit. I need new sandpaper, but that's cheap enough.
    I contacted AllParts UK and obtained the following specs for their Foley bone insert bridge:
    • base length & width:152mm x 15.2mm It has a curved underside
    • separation between the posts: 74mm centre to centre
    • maximum string separation between the 1st & 6th strings: 55.6mm; string spacing centre to centre [I presume of the compensated "compartments"] is roughly 55mm
    • minimum height (bottom of base to top of saddle at the centre): 24mm
    That's very close to the stock PG-250 Loar saddle, maybe 2mm less in pole spacing, and about 1cm length in the base (that you can just saw off). Max string spacing is barely enough to preserve the actual string spacing but should work. The minimum height is a bit max, but if necessary I should be able to gain a few mm here and there if necessary.

    I'll be interested to hear about your experience; if you can document it with some soundbites that would be even better

  18. #17

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    Imo, bone is inferior for hardware. I think it doesn't conduct well and sucks tone. I'd recommend something else.

  19. #18

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    Bone is the material of choice for nuts. It's the traditional material for flat-top guitars. I'm not sure why it's not in more general use for archtops. I don't think it "sucks tone", probably more that it enhances tone. Jazz players don't seem to like much treble in the sound.

  20. #19

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    You stole the words right out of my mouth (except I decided just to ignore the remark ).

    I guess there are materials that transmit even more energy than bone does (ivory might but is a bit off-limits these days). If you're playing an electric plank you probably want to loose as little energy as possible (to increase sustain I suppose, anything else you just turn up the volume?). I took Jimmy's position in this light.

    For an acoustic, bone is evidently the material most all serious luthiers favour, both for nuts and saddles. I guess titanium might make for a suitable replacement on paper, being very light and stiff.

    One thing I'm concerned about is that the plain wire trebles will display the same nasal character they tend to have on flattops (and that gets picked up so "nicely" by piezo PUs). But that's one reason I'm still hoping to find another kind of treble string (Galli BN120 have tape-wound trebles; Thomastik also make them but only at classical guitar tension to my knowledge).

    OT: Thomastik also make CG strings that have silk-and-steel, stainless steel flat-wound B & G strings. Tuning the G up to a B you get the equivalent of a 16 or 17 plain wire B that sounds exactly like I'd want it to sound. I tried this on my jumbo, which has a slightly longer scale length than my archtop and where the tension was too much for me in the end. If you're used to heavy strings and don't bend then this might work out fine though. Sadly I couldn't do the same with the B string; I got it up to about a D# and then it went snap.

  21. #20

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    You'll notice the tone get worse if you install the bone. Other materials work better such as wood, various plastics (graph tech), corian or metal.

  22. #21

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    It'd help if you defined "worse", and your playing conditions...

    GraphTech pretends that its Tusq material is very close to bone but with a(n even) better transfer function. The original saddle on my Seagull was made by them. I had to replace it to increase the action and got a bone copy by Chris Alsop, which gives me more and better sound. It's also a lot harder.

    I already stated I can imagine metal saddles that should work better, on paper at least. I don't want to know what a titanium or tungsten bridge would cost though. Steel and brass would be too heavy and probably not hard enough.

    Ceramic might be an interesting replacement: light, hard and (can be) smooth, moulds could be made for series production. The kind of ceramic glass used for hot plates could work too but might be too heavy.

    Anyway, back to bone vs. ebony. I read elsewhere that ebony contains lots of silicates, causing it to wear down peg bogs if you use it for tuning pegs. That suggests it has an abrasive microtexture and I wonder if that could cause binding. I notice that on my archtop, not just the kind where the string suddenly jumps while tuning. Rather, I notice some kind of lag while tuning: it's like my peg turning movement goes through a slow lowpass filter. I've come to realise that may be because of tension distribution happening across the bridge, slowed down by friction. Of course that could also be because of the string winding (but then it should be worse with round-wounds and in my experience flat-wounds exhibit more binding).
    Sorry for being long-winded, in a nutshell: any chance that bone saddles are better in this aspect? I suppose the string/saddle contact area must be smaller?

  23. #22

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    The purpose of a bone saddle vs. polycarbonate/wood is that real bone allows the top to vibrate more effectively than any other material by a direct transfer of sound of the string vibration to the top of the guitar. The net result is a louder, cleaner tone. This is why real bone is used by all quality classical guitar luthiers. With a solid wood archtop, the sound difference(depending on the quality of tonewood) could be dramatic but even a laminate guitar could benefit from bone. I recently refitted a new bone saddle on my Brune Cedar Classical guitar and the difference ,to my ears, was very noticeable in clarity and projection. However, I would not use the term "treble" to describe the sound since this is incorrect. I haven't seen one yet for an archtop jazz guitar but the principle of sound transmission would be identical to a CG.
    Marinero

  24. #23

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    I have never tried a bone saddle on an archtop, but my 48 DA came to me with an Ivory saddle (with the longtime second owners name being inscribed on the bottom). I found the Ivory to be much brighter than either rosewood or ebony after swapping saddles and playing the guitar right after the swaps. The Ivory saddle will reside in the case pocket of that guitar for the duration of my ownership of the instrument. As I like the tone that wood bridge saddles give on an archtop (I tolerate a TOM with nylon saddles, but do not like a TOM with metal saddles on an archtop), I do not foresee trying a bone saddle. I have seen bone saddles in use on Selmer style guitars, but those guitars often are about a bright, cutting sound, and that is not the sound I want from my archtops.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I have never tried a bone saddle on an archtop, but my 48 DA came to me with an Ivory saddle (with the longtime second owners name being inscribed on the bottom). I found the Ivory to be much brighter than either rosewood or ebony after swapping saddles and playing the guitar right after the swaps.
    I expect ivory to be harder than bone, and thus give (rather, allow for) a brighter tone. Or should we say a tone with more brightness to it, as the effect should not be a shift towards higher frequencies, but rather an extension?

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I have never tried a bone saddle on an archtop, but my 48 DA came to me with an Ivory saddle ... The Ivory saddle will reside in the case pocket of that guitar for the duration of my ownership of the instrument.
    In fact, how long ago did you do the swap? I assume you can handle the swapping yourself ... if so, could you be persuaded to do a comparison recording (esp. of the acoustic tone)? I assume a '48 DA to be all solid woods and an excellent acoustic player (too)...

    I've looked for those on YT but without success...