The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Can anyone comment on this? Intonation is fine on this Super, but noticed this earlier in the week, low E string. Is it cosmetic, or do I need to have the tailpiece reset? Thank you for any observations.
    Attached Images Attached Images Archtop Tailpiece Alignment with Bridge-stailpiece-jpg 
    Last edited by tomvwash; 02-09-2022 at 10:20 PM.

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  3. #2

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    Is there some way you could draw a picture or something? I'm not really getting it. Or I'm just a little stupid.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Is there some way you could draw a picture or something? I'm not really getting it. Or I'm just a little stupid.
    No, maybe I'm obsessing--just looking at how the low E veers hard left at the bridge, but it's fine once it aligns with the fretboard.

  5. #4

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    Post a pic

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    Post a pic
    Sorry, I thought a cut and paste would do it. Is the pic actually showing now...

  7. #6

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    Nope

  8. #7

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    Hmmm, give me a photo of the entire guitar looking along the strings with the tailpiece in the foreground. The bridge ought not be so askew, but the real relationship is with the strings' alignment with the fingerboard, aproximately equidistant from the edge of the fingerboard on each side (with slight adjustments to taste). If the strings are aligned with the fingerboard, the bridge is in the right place, but the tailpiece would be suspiciously off centre. Could you take a photo of the end of the tailpiece against the end of the guitar too?
    Is this by any chance a 70's era Gibson?

  9. #8

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    tomvwash, the truth is, as long as the downward pressure of the strings keeps the orientation of the strings correct in relation to the fingerboard, it'll be OK. The issue (can't actually tell what's exactly going on because photo angles can be deceiving) is if the tailpiec is off centre, there will be unequal lateral string pull between the tailpiece and the back side of the bridge. That tendency can (and I've seen it) shift the bridge side to side as it tends towards the centre line of the tailpiece and the centre line drawn to the centre of the nut. Really, you don't want to be introducing any lateral pull in an ideal world.
    Sometimes from time to time I'll remove the bridge while I'm changing strings if I'm giving the instrument a deep clean and waxing for protection. That kind of misalignment can slide the bridge foot off centre of the fingerboard if there's not solid traction and unequal tension.
    I've seen misaligned tailpieces but this would be the first I've seen on a super 400.
    Just for kicks, make sure the screws securing the tailpiece are fully secure and the tailpiece is snug against the end of the guitar. A very slight gap there will be amplified (leverage) and could cause this kind of skew.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    tomvwash, the truth is, as long as the downward pressure of the strings keeps the orientation of the strings correct in relation to the fingerboard, it'll be OK. The issue (can't actually tell what's exactly going on because photo angles can be deceiving) is if the tailpiec is off centre, there will be unequal lateral string pull between the tailpiece and the back side of the bridge. That tendency can (and I've seen it) shift the bridge side to side as it tends towards the centre line of the tailpiece and the centre line drawn to the centre of the nut. Really, you don't want to be introducing any lateral pull in an ideal world.
    Sometimes from time to time I'll remove the bridge while I'm changing strings if I'm giving the instrument a deep clean and waxing for protection. That kind of misalignment can slide the bridge foot off centre of the fingerboard if there's not solid traction and unequal tension.
    I've seen misaligned tailpieces but this would be the first I've seen on a super 400.
    Just for kicks, make sure the screws securing the tailpiece are fully secure and the tailpiece is snug against the end of the guitar. A very slight gap there will be amplified (leverage) and could cause this kind of skew.
    '74 Super 400 CES, yes. I messaged you with more pics. Is this an issue with 70's era?

  11. #10

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    All eras are hit or miss, I've seen it w every Gibson imaginable. The first L-5 I purchased (also an early 70s guitar) the tailpiece was mounted so off it would have taken a redrill or neck reset to keep the bridge from sliding over. As long as it's literally not pulling the bridge over under tension, though not ideal, you'll be OK.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomvwash
    '74 Super 400 CES, yes. I messaged you with more pics. Is this an issue with 70's era?
    I've seen a shameful tendency towards "not top quality" QC in Norlin Gibsons of this era, so the sharp edge cut corners on the bridge, that misalignment, they all pointed to the "Get it out the door faster" mindset that sometimes appears from time to time if the individual luthier didn't take the initiative and pride to put it right.
    Handbuilts have their quirks. This is an annoying one that IMHO should not have made it out the door without being flagged and corrected. Jeeze, I worked for Ibanez and that was one of the points for rejection: misaligned tailpiece. It can shift the bridge unexpectedly, but gosh, it just LOOKS bad.
    There are ways to address this if you want. It's not a big issue in the big picture of things.
    Good luck.

  13. #12

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    Your picture indicates a possible neck alignment issue.
    Assuming the strings line up properly with the fretboard (pic doesn't show) then it's obvious the tailpiece doesn't line up with the neck. Sometimes the tailpiece can be adjusted, don't know about the Super 400?

    A misaligned tailpiece ranges from cosmetic to a real performance problem. Hard to tell from a picture considering possible parallax error, but in your case I think you'll have to address it.

  14. #13

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    In the center (also the middle of the bridge) I think I can see the joint of the soundboard, when you follow that line downwards (together with the grain direction), then the tailpiece seems to be out of the middle. But maybe this seems wrong from the photo perspective?

    Archtop Tailpiece Alignment with Bridge-tailpiece-jpg

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arthur V.
    In the center (also the middle of the bridge) I think I can see the joint of the soundboard, when you follow that line downwards (together with the grain direction), then the tailpiece seems to be out of the middle. But maybe this seems wrong from the photo perspective?

    Archtop Tailpiece Alignment with Bridge-tailpiece-jpg
    This is why I was curious to see a photo of the actual end of the tailpiece. Usually the centre line of a top join is the sacred geometric symmetry line throughout the construction of the instrument from corpus to neck join to tailpiece attachment. A photo of the end of the body from the perspective of the side will show the sides joined at the end block (which we'll assume to be correctly bi-lateral) and how the tailpiece is situated in relation to that.
    It's the easiest and simplest point of error, and easiest to correct so I'm hoping that's actually what the problem is.
    A photo of the butt end of the guitar looking at the strap button/tailpiece/centre line of the guitar could tell us something.

  16. #15
    Do these pics help?
    Attached Images Attached Images Archtop Tailpiece Alignment with Bridge-img-5173-jpg Archtop Tailpiece Alignment with Bridge-img-5172-jpg Archtop Tailpiece Alignment with Bridge-img-5174-jpg 

  17. #16

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    I've noticed that type of discrepancy on many Gibson archtops over the years : the bridge was not centered between the inner edges of the f-holes, the strings did not line up with the polepieces of both pickups , etc. - clearly a sign of negligent quality control.

  18. #17
    QC issue is obvious enough by now. How do I address it? I'm assuming luthier will have to drill new holes to get the tailpiece centered or lined-up.

  19. #18

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    -Are strings lining up properly on the fretboard? (i.e sufficient distance from the outer strings to the fret ends). Post a pic of the fretboard.

  20. #19
    [QUOTE=JCat;1179755]-Are strings lining up properly on the fretboard? (i.e sufficient distance from the outer strings to the fret ends). Post a pic of the fretboard.[/QUOTE

    Yes, perfectly. That’s the good news.

  21. #20

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    The mounting of the set neck is a very delicate operation. If the neck is angled to the side, ever so slightly, the result is what we see here; a misaligned tailpiece.
    Most of them have marignal errors, whithin acceptable tolerance. Most of the time it's only cosmetic. But when out of bounds, it's a problem that affects playability.

    If it plays fine, if it stays in tune, if the neck is straight, if the setup is stable...then I would just leave it like that and enjoy the guitar.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    If it plays fine, if it stays in tune, if the neck is straight, if the setup is stable...then I would just leave it like that and enjoy the guitar.
    I'm a stickler about this string tension issue just because small traumas like taking the guitar out in its case even, can be just a literal walk in the park for a balanced guitar where all the forces enforce the stability inherent to the design.
    Building instability into a guitar, no matter how long you, or someone else, can get away with it is never a good idea. I hate it when I'm changing strings and the bridge slides to the side cuz the tension is uneven. Now you can just knock it back, re-intonate, check the neck/string alignment and micro correct because it's not "just the way you're used to", or you can have a guitar that will stay where you want it.
    I assume that on the way to a gig, or just on the way to a vacation with my guitar, that the guitar comes out, gets tuned and I play. I can't in my right mind assume the instrument will have not shifted if the strings are trying to pull the bridge 1/4" to the side and every knock is going to indulge that tendency.
    It's most annoying, or worse, when you have to deal with a flaw in a setup or build of a perfectly good instrument.
    But that's just me. Everyone has different tolerance for what works for them. Hell, I just read the thread here on the forum where someone bought a Super with a potentially catastrophic top crack from a neck block torque inflicted shock...and a broken neck to boot. I'm sure the new owner is thrilled. So yeah, different strokes for different folks...

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomvwash
    Do these pics help?
    The dark burst on the sides covers up that centre line join that acts as an easy guide when placing the tailpiece. Maybe that's why it was screwed in the wrong place?
    With the proper lighting conditions, you may be able to see the seam where the two sides meet. That point of the tailpiece should point exactly to that seam. In an ideal world. Just one possible checkpoint in a long list of diagnostics. (you can also take the strap button off and see if that hole is perfectly bisected by a line down the middle of the guitar)
    Best of luck tomvwash! Enjoy that beauty when it's to where you're happy.

  24. #23

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    Didn't you just purchase this and Isn't this guitar currently for sale? If so I wouldn't be redrilling anything unless you want a couple holes showing to a perspective buyer.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon
    Didn't you just purchase this and Isn't this guitar currently for sale? If so I wouldn't be redrilling anything unless you want a couple holes showing to a perspective buyer.
    No drilling. On the fence on selling, probably keeping it, but I was on a spree.

  26. #25

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    I would have to see the guitar in person to decide what to do as picture can be a bit deceiving. If the guitar played really well and not issues with intonation and action and the rest I might just leave it alone. However my sense of symmetry is very apparent and I would probably removed the tailpiece and plug the holes. Then simply re-drill them and frankly that is not going to devalue the guitar and probably it will never show unless one takes off the tailpiece. It appears to be need to be moved over about 1/8th of an inch. Hopefully it would be less the the amount of cover the tailpiece provides over the finish to show any line where it previously was anchored.

    Right now off the top of my head I would center the tailpiece. In the shop this would take me at least and hour since it would include a whole setup in effect. This means really put new strings and get the guitar playing and looking straight up. I would say 2 hours of charged labor and I would need to get $120. Cheap when you consider I just went to the store and bought a few groceries that will last not that long and spent the same amount of money. Not mention the guitar's value at 7.5-10K$.

    One edit. If you are considering selling the guitar and worried about the next buyer then take a before and after picture. Then explain it to the potential buyer in the future. In fact I would do this regardless because you might sell it down the line no matter what. It should leave no doubt in the buyer's mind what was going on and what you did.