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  1. #1

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    Hello. How can I tell if my nut slots are not deep enough? I suspect that my action, at least on the bass side may be a little too high at the first fret. But to some degree, the relief and bridge height would affect this as well yes? So how can I know how low the slots should be? Guitar is a 1998 ES-165.

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  3. #2

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    The common method is, when you fret a string at the 3rd fret, it should clear the first fret by a hair. Let say 0.08 inches. This should be high enough for open strings not to buzz when strummed or picked reasonably hard. If you use very light gauge strings and strum hard then may be a bit more clearance needed.
    This can be done independently from bridge adjustment or even truss rod since you are fretting at the 3 fret.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    The common method is, when you fret a string at the 3rd fret, it should clear the first fret by a hair. Let say 0.08 inches. This should be high enough for open strings not to buzz when strummed or picked reasonably hard. If you use very light gauge strings and strum hard then may be a bit more clearance needed.
    This can be done independently from bridge adjustment or even truss rod since you are fretting at the 3 fret.
    Thank You, that's very helpful.

  5. #4

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    You are welcome. One small clarification. When I said that this can be done independently from bridge height adjustment, I meant you can adjust nut height without worrying about the bridge height but not the other way around. Obviously changing the nut height will affect the action and hence the required bridge adjustment. Truss rod adjustment on the other hand is less dependent on nut height. Though in some cases lowering the nut may require looser truss rod (more arch) for open string clearance, but that's debatable. So, nut height should be adjusted before these two.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-28-2018 at 10:27 PM.

  6. #5

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  7. #6

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    Excellent, many thanks. I don't have feelers handy. I'll get some, but I can tell it's too high already, especially on the bass side.

  8. #7

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    You probably do not need a feeler gauge for this. Just want to tell you that 0.08 inches is something I made up on the spot as my ballpark guess for "very small gap".

  9. #8

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    Ok. Based on the pics in the link posted above, I'm in the ballpark on the high E, then it gets gradually higher, until I'm at least double what's in the pic for the low E.

  10. #9

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    Almost every factory guitar I've ever played had the nut slots too high. It's cheaper and safer to ship them out that way. If you cut the slots just a tiny bit too deep, you've ruined the nut. It can be fixed, but it's time and money that a factory can't afford to spend often, so the common solution is to just cut the slots higher and ship them. On a high-end boutique guitar you may find perfect nut slots on delivery, but not from any large high-volume factory. I'm resigned to doing my own slots on anything I acquire. My method is to fret a string across both the first and second frets, use feeler gauges to measure the height of the frets, add a couple of thousandths to that, and then use the stacked gauges as a depth stop, across the fretboard up against the nut, and cut down to the gauges. It's pretty easy to tell when you hit the metal gauges. Then I usually file the top of the nut, taking it down to a level where half the wound strings are in the slots, half above the top of the nut. The two unwound strings should be just at the level of the top of the nut. Different people have different methods, but that's mine.

  11. #10

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    Also when filing the nut it's important to preserve the back angle of the slot.
    When measuring the height after filing, string has to be tuned to pitch, if it's not tight, it won't show the height accurately, I learned this the hard way
    If it's cut too deep, there is always the baking powder + super glue formula (see the previous sentence).

  12. #11

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    Non-technical method follows. Pluck the open string hard, letting it ring for a while and if there's no discernible buzz, figure you can take it down a tiny shade more. Repeat as necessary. Has worked for me.

  13. #12

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    Prior to any nut slot depth adjustment, you must get the neck relief figured out.
    By that, I mean there can be much more variation on relief that is just for player's preference, sort of like the wide range for string action height, as compared to the much tighter range of nut slot depth that can actually work.

    Get your truss rod adjustment done to where you have the neck relief where you want to keep it, then you can consider the nut slot condition. A bit extra neck relief puts enough bend in there to effectively raise the nut over the first fret, so if you were to optimize the slot depth and later tighten the truss rod a bit, the string height over the first fret (what the nut slot determines) may become insufficient and might buzz. Neck relief (truss rod adjustment) can have more influence over nut slot depth than does action height (bridge saddle height.)

    Tal's .080" was as he clarified, just a number he used for an example of "small", I think you could move the decimal over for some guitars that might be fine with .008" on the treble side at fret one.

    Often you read instructions that say to use a stack of feeler gauges as the "stop" for a nut file (you'd file down until you just nick the feeler gauge.) I do NOT want to ruin expensive files by hitting the steel, so I've found a spool of Mil-spec wire I had around, with PTFE insulation, was consistent diameter and the right size to use as a file depth stop. Never going to hurt my files, and I can see the wire roll as soon as the file reaches that depth. Pic below shows the white teflon insulation wire on a Wenge/Ebony neck getting GraphTech nut install.

    Getting the nut slot correct is really going to make a difference, the guitar can be transformed.
    Sometimes that $3 piece of bone blank IS worth investing $70 to have a luthier perform fit & finish !
    John

    Nut slot depth?-nut_file-jpg

  14. #13

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    If you're filing so hard that you'll ruin your files by hitting feeler gauges, you're doing it wrong. And if your expensive files will be ruined by touching feeler gauges, they aren't worth anything close to what you paid for them.

  15. #14

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    I personally wrap a high grid sand paper around appropriate size feeler gauge when I need to file a nut. Takes longer and requires more attention than using a perfectly matching expensive file per each slot but works like a charm.
    If you do this for a living then it's worth to invest on expensive files of various gauges. But if you just need to do it once a year or less like most people then extra time spend with the inefficient sand paper method makes sense.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 08-31-2018 at 03:10 PM.

  16. #15

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    I use my pic as my string guide for the first fret its a thin.38 if I can put my pic under the string and it stays then its low enough and I don't get Buzz it also stays in tune when fingering at the first fret. I try and keep the string spaceing to fret at the twelth at .40 or a little higher I use 11s nickel strings. good action and intoneation

  17. #16

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    .40" is really high action, almost half an inch. I assume you left out a zero between the decimal and the 4. Or perhaps you're using some other length unit, with which I'm not familiar. .04" is very, very low action, and I can't get that on any guitar I own. 4mm is more realistic, but I don't know what units you're using.

  18. #17

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    If you are only doing it once in a while, try the inexpensive welding tip cleaners. At least you'll be closer to making a round botton slot.
    I've seen people use a steak knife for this, so obviously there's a wide range of what people consider an acceptable job, but the slot fit to string is worth getting right.

    Nut files are the best tool for slotting, but like any fine edge cutting tool they do wear. I know how to file (cut in one direction, not drag back and forth) and I am not going to concede "I'm doing it wrong" just because I'd never advocate hitting them against steel regardless of how light that contact was. Just from working bone, even the best nut files lose edge fast enough and there's not much material on them to etch sharpen to extend use. It's a bit silly to say files are no good if they can't hold up to abuse, in response to a suggestion on how to avoid the abuse. If you treat these delicate tools well, they just perform better for a longer life. I think that applies to all fine quality nut files, which absolutely do wear fast enough already.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by john_a
    If you are only doing it once in a while, try the inexpensive welding tip cleaners.
    Thanks. Good to know. I'll give these a try, they may work better than gauge plates.

  20. #19

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    They work, but very slowly. They are not sharp, not being designed to cut anything, and it takes a very long time to rub a slot into a bone nut with them. I have a set, and they're fine for final dressing of a slot, but I wouldn't consider them for cutting a new nut. They do work great for making slots in wooden bridge saddles, though. The wood is softer, and you don't need much depth, so they do the job quickly enough. Bone, OTOH, takes awhile. But if you already have the slots to approximate depth, they should do the job for a nut.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Though in some cases lowering the nut may require looser truss rod (more arch) for open string clearance, but that's debatable.
    Confirmed. There's no debate over this fact, but there are different schools of thought regarding which method is the better; A dead flat neck with a taller nut or a bowed neck with a lower nut.
    Personally I've reached the conclusion that this depends on the guitar model and the fretboard radius, the prefered string gauge and overall fret condition. And maybe most important when fine tuning the sound and the overall response; what bridge height and corresponding downforce on the bridge provides the best result. (Generally less relief means a higher bridge).

    Therefore I think this is correct:


    Quote Originally Posted by john_a
    Prior to any nut slot depth adjustment, you must get the neck relief figured out.
    By that, I mean there can be much more variation on relief that is just for player's preference, sort of like the wide range for string action height, as compared to the much tighter range of nut slot depth that can actually work.

    Get your truss rod adjustment done to where you have the neck relief where you want to keep it, then you can consider the nut slot condition. A bit extra neck relief puts enough bend in there to effectively raise the nut over the first fret, so if you were to optimize the slot depth and later tighten the truss rod a bit, the string height over the first fret (what the nut slot determines) may become insufficient and might buzz. Neck relief (truss rod adjustment) can have more influence over nut slot depth than does action height (bridge saddle height.)

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    Almost every factory guitar I've ever played had the nut slots too high. It's cheaper and safer to ship them out that way.
    Players have different preferences. Once upon a time, the dealer was supposed to do a setup according to the customer preference. The dealer was responsible to file the nut. The customers were happy.
    Then came internet, on-line sales and the PLEK machine and dealers were supposed not to touch the "perfect" factory setup.

    I've learned the hard way:

    Some guitar models that for the last 40 years were shipped from factory with 10-46 strings suddenly came with nuts slotted for 9-42. It was mentioned in the detailed specs, but the dealers didn't know and gave wrong information to the customers. Assuming that 75% of the customers went with 9-42 for this particular model, 25% of the customers got tuning problems.

    A PLEKed compund radius board needs to be set up much flatter than a regular board, hence the nut needs to be higher.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat
    Confirmed. There's no debate over this fact, but there are different schools of thought regarding which method is the better; A dead flat neck with a taller nut or a bowed neck with a lower nut.
    Personally I've reached the conclusion that this depends on the guitar model and the fretboard radius, the prefered string gauge and overall fret condition. And maybe most important when fine tuning the sound and the overall response; what bridge height and corresponding downforce on the bridge provides the best result. (Generally less relief means a higher bridge).

    Therefore I think this is correct:
    I think john_a's reasoning for adjusting the truss rod first and the reason you gave are completely different things. John_a believes you should adjust truss rod first because that can change the bow of the neck enough that the the standard "string clearance on the first fret while fretted on the 3rd fret" measurement can be effected. Unless we are talking about very extremes of truss rod adjustment, I don't believe that's necessary.
    "A dead flat neck with a taller nut" won't work unless one is only strumming open strings and never using the fretboard. Truss rod adjustment affects buzzing on all frets up to around the 12th fret. How high the nut is has no effect on buzzing as soon as you fret a string. Of course you can make the bridge higher too, that would make higher action guitar than needs to be. The idea of giving some bow to the neck by tightening the truss rod is to be able to set up the guitar with lower bridge and nut height, therefore action.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I think john_a's reasoning for adjusting the truss rod first and the reason you gave are completely different things. John_a believes you should adjust truss rod first because that can change the bow of the neck enough that the the standard "string clearance on the first fret while fretted on the 3rd fret" measurement can be effected. Unless we are talking about very extremes of truss rod adjustment, I don't believe that's necessary.
    Rule of thumb; fret buzz near the nut - give the neck more relief. Fretbuzz in the middle of the neck, tighten the truss rod. If the nut is high (too high or not), fretbuzz near the nut won't occur even when the fretboard is flat (unless you hit it much harder than your regular touch)




    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    "A dead flat neck with a taller nut" won't work unless one is only strumming open strings and never using the fretboard.
    I used to think that, but I was proven wrong. It depends on a number of variables as I mentioned and it won't work on every guitar. (on a side note the open chord strummer should avoid a tall nut)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    Truss rod adjustment affects buzzing on all frets up to around the 12th fret.
    It totally depends on design, the neckjoint and the heel. A 335 is affected to 17th fret. A Les Paul is rigid from 14th fret. My dreadnought is rigid from the 12th fret, and it's virtually flat. My 335 got about 1mm relief.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    How high the nut is has no effect on buzzing as soon as you fret a string. Of course you can make the bridge higher too, that would make higher action guitar than needs to be. The idea of giving some bow to the neck by tightening the truss rod is to be able to set up the guitar with lower bridge and nut height, therefore action.
    Actually this depends on the neck angle and the guitar model. Action and relief is related in more than one way. "Action" basically means how the guitar feels in your hands. String height can be measured on many spots on the fretboard. A guitar that's got only primary relief up to around 6th fret, may have low string height around 14th fret but too high strings in the centre due to excess relief, hence feel like it's got high action (especially if there's not enough neck angle).

  25. #24

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    I know of no good reason for having a tall nut. My setup method is to get the nut slots at or barely above the height of the frets, and then adjust the truss rod and bridge as necessary. This works for straight necks or necks with lots of relief. The relief depends on the player and how hard (s)he hits the strings. Personally, I want barely perceptible relief, but everyone has a different, and valid, opinion on how much is needed. But having nut slots that are high affects the intonation and playability at the lower frets, and in a bad way.

  26. #25

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    To me tall nut just means frets 1, 2, 3 being out of tune (sharp). That would really bother me even thought I typically dwell above the 5th fret.