The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Hi persevere, as i dont believe its the actual guitar, I have 165 same pup, my previous 165 was also good.

    the screws on the pup can make a huge difference, and also how close the pup is to strings,

    490 pup on ES-165 is good. dont give up on it, I play with a fairly light touch,

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  3. #27

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    The bridge can make a definite difference in tone, and IME the base makes more difference than the saddle. On some guitars a perfectly fitted solid base sounds best, but on others a two-footed bridge sounds better. I've actually found some on which a poorly fitted base sounds better than a perfectly fitted one. It's pure trial and error, I never know until I try some different bridges. A TOM in general will sound brighter than a wooden saddle, so do experiment with those also. But the best combination just can't be determined in advance, because every guitar is different.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by wengr
    The pickup I think should be a 57 classic, unless a PO changed it out.


    no............................................ it came standard with 490R

    Based on an Alnico II magnet, the 490R & 490T models provide similar output levels to the Burstbucker models. Tonally, however, these pickups provide slightly more mid-range bite.


    However if someone changed pots (who knows why?)

    ES-165 was originally released with a single 490R humbucker, one volume control (300k Linear taper) and one tone control (500K audio with a .022 microfarad ceramic disc capacitor.)


    I believe they made this pickup to sound similar the Herbs original,,

    also to my mind Herb also had a slighty twangy sound i love his playing.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durban


    I believe they made this pickup to sound similar the Herbs original,,

    also to my mind Herb also had a slighty twangy sound i love his playing.
    FWIW, here are pics of the humbucker that replaced the original P90 in Herb’s ‘53. I’ve never taken pics of the pots. I should do that sometime.


  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
    FWIW, here are pics of the humbucker that replaced the original P90 in Herb’s ‘53. I’ve never taken pics of the pots. I should do that sometime.
    Do you happen to know exactly what brand/gauge strings Herb played with this setting?

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzNote
    Do you happen to know exactly what brand/gauge strings Herb played with this setting?
    I believe he was last playing Thomastik Swing JS112. I’m pretty sure Herb would tell you to adjust yours the way that works for your guitar/pickup.

    I’ve been thinking about making a video showing how he said to do it.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
    I believe he was last playing Thomastik Swing JS112. I’m pretty sure Herb would tell you to adjust yours the way that works for your guitar/pickup.

    I’ve been thinking about making a video showing how he said to do it.
    Please do!

  9. #33

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    Also you can try nylon or other alloy saddles just on the high strings.

    You can also get individual gauges of Elixir
    Nanoweb or Polyweb for the plain strings.

    There needs to be a saddle material that is tuned to mute highs a bit ( at the source -not the same as a Tone Control) .
    Nylon is one but there should be others ..

    I notice some Archtops come with both a tuneomatic bridge and a wooden( Ebony or Rosewood I assume )- BUT think of all the graphite / hybrid alloy saddles etc - they could develop different alloys .

    I think part of the reason my Guitar is so dark is the Koa but also the wilkinson trem ( I hate trems but blocked you get semihollow effect ) has Aluminum Saddles -
    They do not sound muffled at all - but there is no twang at all acoustically and it is very loud and even and full unplugged for a solidbody .Wood vibrates all over during decay of chords etc. Louder and fuller than a 335 unplugged.

    So I am trying to figure out how to get this effect again - on a new Semi etc. And saddles can be important I think.

    But the Luthiery should help.

    One of the things I listen for in a new Electric unplugged is full tone and volume from the unwound strings .

    That is what the Guitar is supposed to do - add body and low end resonance to the higher strings -

    So they sing with a flute- like or Alto Sax like ring and sustain..
    Last edited by Robertkoa; 01-22-2019 at 05:11 PM.

  10. #34

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    I took 2 guitars with this problem to an experienced luthier.

    He thought that, in both cases, the issue was the bridge saddles vibrating. They're supposed to be solid.

    In one case I replaced the bridge. Better, not perfect. Still working on it. I have noticed that not all amps/settings reproduce the problem. You can hear it more with the treble up.

    In the other case, he made sure there was no freeplay by turning the screws. Then he put some dense foam in front of the saddles, with the goal of damping more vibration. Something worked, because the guitar was much better.

  11. #35

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    Some use Nylon Saddles on the highest strings ...and we should have different alloy / graphite saddles that go from wood type response all the way to brass and all points in between ...

    Would be nice to be able to fine tune at the saddle to even out and fill out high strings .....

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by wengr
    Hello. I have never liked the tone from the B and high E strings on my 1998 165 Herb Ellis. It's the older humbucker model. The unwound strings sound thin, brassy, and too bright. No body to the tone. I use Chromes 13's, although I doubt the string brand matters too much with the unwound strings.
    I can't dial it out much, and it is the same across multiple amps.
    I'm wondering if the TOM is responsible? I'd rather not move to a wood saddle, so I'm wondering if changing the individual saddles under the B and E to nylon would make a difference? Any info appreciated.
    you could try a coated B and E string.Or using diffrent Bridge materials you could try. Use a EQ might do it. I would first try the pickup adjustments if you have the type poles that screw in and out. As I understand it all B and E strings are steel.

  13. #37

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    Nylon Saddles will help tame the brightness.....

    But not sure about the thin part.


    Try nylon for warmth.

  14. #38

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    I just to day watched a lot of videos about pickup and types of magnets used what the careristics of different magnets produce A 2 to A8 and ceramic you should look in to that aspect of the pickup to adjusting a sound. also look at Gauss strength of each pole.

  15. #39

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    This is an interesting post. I sure like just picking up the guitar and playing it without all of the anxiety about strings, pole pieces, what Herb did or didn't do, fender amp design, etc, because I spend most of my budgeted anxiety on cords, phrasing, new tunes, digging myself out of tired patterns. Good to hear about stuff that I don't worry much about to get a measure of my freedoms. Or problems to which I don't realize I'm having!

    Cheers

  16. #40

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    Great thread. I learned a lot and got some ideas to try. I have similar issues with my Sadowsky Jimmy Bruno. I have been using GHS Pat Martino 15-52 flatwounds, and have way too much bass plus thin tone on the B and E strings. After reading this, I adjusted the humbucker height and pole pieces, which made a huge difference in bass/treble balance. I can now return the compressor pedal I bought the other day, as these adjustments accomplished the same thing (lesson learned --- try free and cheap solutions first).

    I still have the thin tone on the unwound strings, though. Yesterday, I read that Ed Bickert, whose sweet tone I aspire to emulate (emphasis on "aspire") used 10-46s, and sometimes 12s on his tele. So I hauled out my rarely-played 1980 Ibanez PF-350 solid body, which is strung with D'Addario XL Chrome 11-50 flatwounds, and was amazed by the tone across ALL the strings. I had forgotten how good that guitar sounds. No more muddy chords and thin highs. And, of course, those strings were so comfortable to play compared with the 15s. So I have ordered up an 11-47 set of TI Jazz Swings in the hope that they will restore my love for the Sadowsky. I think I got locked into a set of assumptions about things like guitar types and string gauges, and failed to experiment. So thanks for getting me off my ass.

  17. #41

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    Part of it is also the guitars innate voice. ES 175's are known for being bright and thin on the treble end of things. It's part of it's charm. I use 13 or 14 gauge for E and 16-17 gauge for B strings on mine. That works pretty well. You still get the ES 175 trebles but a bit more balanced.

  18. #42

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    A variety of factors go into it, both the guitar itself, your technique and your other gear selections esp. your pick (and what technique you build around your choice of pick). I have a fairly heavy touch, use a thick pick and strike the string pretty much perpendicular (vs. angled) so I seem to need thick strings. On my thinline archtop I have to use a 0.14 on the high E to get my desired sound. I've also experimented with a 0.18 for the B string from time to time in the past on other guitars but have now pretty much settled on standard TI 13 sets (i.e. 0.17 for the B string) except on the thinline where I swap the 0.14 in.

  19. #43

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    wengr's original post in this thread set me off on my own quest for improved tone on the B and high E. First, I installed TI 11-47 Jazz Swing flatwounds on the Sadowsky JB, replacing GHS Martino 15-52s, and immediately enjoyed a much sweeter, more mellow tone from the B and E strings. Of course, the lighter gauges are much more playable too, but they produced a bit of G string buzz on the first fret. A check showed the neck to be absolutely straight, so I made a small truss rod adjustment to add just a bit of relief, which eliminated the buzz and also improved tone on D and G. Next, I dropped the saddle a bit to compensate for the higher action created by the added relief, and finally I readjusted pole pieces to get a proper Bass/Treble balance. Also experimented with picks, and found the Dunlop Gator 2 mm produced the best tone for me. The journey continues.

    All of this came from several hours on this forum, reading threads on a half dozen relevant topics. It is a tremendous resource.