The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi all

    A couple of years ago I bought an unfinished Greco ES-175 copy. As far as I can tell the guitar is from 1992 and for some reason it was never finished. The body and neck was glued together when I bought it and the neck was almost finished with lacquering done and all. The body was partly done, only missing binding and lacquering. I bought it because I thought it would be a fun project to finish it.

    So later on I realized that the guitar wasn't finished for very good reasons. Turns out that routing for the binding wasn't made to the right dimensions and not entirely precisely made as well. So I spent a lot of time adjusting the routing channel and subsequently glueing in different binding than usually used for this kind of guitar. In the end the result is reasonable for a first time binder so I decided to continue.

    So now the guitar has been prepared for clear coat, after hours of sanding sanding and porefilling. Everything is set for the first coats on wednesday and suddenly - to my big surprise (and a embarrasment) tonight I discovered, that the neck is glued in at a completely wrong angle, leaving only about (estimated) 12 mm of space between the guitartop and the strings. A standard archtop bridge measures about 22-23 mm from bottom to top. Apparently the neck is glued in so it is almost perfectly lined op with the guitar top, resulting in a neck angle close to 0 degrees. Terrible, terrible, terrible!!! :-(

    So I may find a way to finish the guitar, modifying and existing bridge design og alternatively building my very own, but I wonder if it is worth the while. I suppose the neck angle is there for a reason - how will it affect tone and/or playability of the guitar, when neck angle is wrong? Can I finish the guitar and still get a great sounding and playing guitar or should I burn the thing, get on with my life and buy a real 175?

    I hope someone can give me some advice :-)
    Regards
    Simon, Denmark

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  3. #2

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    If me I'd have drink and start thinking of artistic uses for it, a lamp, clock, or cut a large hole then hang on patio for a planter.

  4. #3

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    Sad to say that an incorrect neck angle on a neck with a glued in dovetail neck (and I am just assuming that is what you have) is a very difficult repair. Archtops have much more wiggle room than a flat top. 20 -25mm can probably be an acceptable range. But if you are way out, you have a GLO (guitar like object). I suspect that is why the factory rejected that guitar.

    So, first you have to take the neck off. Hard to do on an Archtop because you have a 12mm thick extension under the fingerboard. The usual way is to pull the 15th fret and drill a 2mm hole in the slot (so as to disguise it later). Hopefully you will reach the little space between the bottom of the dovetail groove in the headblock and the top of the dovetail tongue on the neck. Then you will use some device to inject steam in there to soften the glue. Once softened you should be able to press the neck up and out. Hope some idiot didn't use epoxy or add a screw. Simple, NOT easy.

    Then, you need to clean the pocket perfectly of any glue residue. Same the tongue.

    Next, you will need to carefully carve the neck heel where it bears against the guitar body. Take more from the bottom than the top. Now the neck would bear against the body with a greater angle. You are looking for 3.5 - 5 degrees Now you have to adjust the dovetail so that it creates a tight fit. Make sure you haven't taken more off one side than the other. If you do, you will skew the neck.

    Given up yet?...

    Then you refit the neck and dovetail against the body so that there are no unsightly gaps. Sharp chisels, flossing with sand paper, etc. I have seen students spend days and days on this. Once you have a nice cosmetically perfect joint at the correct angle, pull it apart and paint the dovetail bearing surfaces with some hide glue and clamp it all back down again. Now replace the 15th fret.

    Done!

  5. #4

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    Pictures speak 1000s of words.

  6. #5

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    Slide Guitar?

  7. #6
    Hi all

    Thank you so much for your replies on this. I'm am so frustrated!!

    @rlrhett: I really appreciate your detailed description of the procedures involved in taking the neck off - it is a great help! I realize that the complete procedure of taking the neck off, adjusting the neck through sanding and then glueing the neck back on is both extremely time consuming as well as risky! Have I given up yet? Not quite, but I most likely will. I will probably try to take the neck off - if it goes fairly easy I might very well try to fix it, but if I break something @docbop's solution is the most probable, including the drink!

    @deacon Mark. You are so right. That's why I have attached two pictures to this post.

    @TOMMO: Great idea. You can make a great deal on this particular guitar right now, if you are interested

    Does anyone have any knowledge regarding the consequenses on the tone/sound quality of an archtop, when the bridge pressure on the guitartop is much lower than usual? (The consequence of two shallow a neck angle I suppose)

    Regards
    Simon

    Unfinished Greco 175, neck angle way to low-20170704_115516669_ios-jpgUnfinished Greco 175, neck angle way to low-20170704_115528767_ios-jpg

  8. #7

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    You could try this:


  9. #8
    Interesting! If I do the cut as shown in the video, I suppose I could sand away part of the heel, allowing me to angle the neck when glueing it together again. First problem though, is that the neck on the Greco seems to be glued along the deck of the guitar as well, about 5 cm. I would need to dissolve that glue. Second problem comes down to the fact that a classical guitar has no truss rod unlike the Greco. I'm not sure where the truss ends in this neck. Your "easy" solution for "junk guitars" is worth some consideration though. Thx

  10. #9

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    It might be worth a try? Yeah you would have to unglue the part attached to the deck. Also if you cut like in the video you will cut the dovetail right off the neck, weakening the construction. An archtop has a lot more string tension than a classic, so reinforcement would be in place; I guess a big bolt thru the heel into the heelblock would suffice, but it's not very elegant (but you could place the strap-button there right away).

    The alternative is to steam it until the hole dovetail joint comes undone and reshape it. My guess is that's not easy.
    Last edited by Little Jay; 07-05-2017 at 01:35 AM.

  11. #10

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    Side question ... from a brit

    In the USA do you guys spell
    too or to ?

    (as in too much or to much)

    how is it taught in school English lessons
    No right or wrong ... just interested

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twizt
    Does anyone have any knowledge regarding the consequenses on the tone/sound quality of an archtop, when the bridge pressure on the guitartop is much lower than usual? (The consequence of two shallow a neck angle I suppose)
    I'll put my money on less volume and projection for the fact that the top isn't being pushed as much. I would also guess that the highs would be accentuated and the lows tamped.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Side question ... from a brit

    In the USA do you guys spell
    too or to ?

    (as in too much or to much)

    how is it taught in school English lessons
    No right or wrong ... just interested
    In excess, or in addition: too.

    as part of an active verb: to.

    That was too much. He didn't have to curse too.

    What did you do to him? Where are you going to?

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Thumpalumpacus
    I'll put my money on less volume and projection for the fact that the top isn't being pushed as much. I would also guess that the highs would be accentuated and the lows tamped.
    I was thinking the same thing about volume and projection. A more "treblish" guitar could very well be the consequence as well. Most likely I will dissapointed, so I need to fix the neck ... *sigh* ... or burn the stupid thing.

  15. #14

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    If you are interested in repairing guitars this project would be a good way to learn. If not there are other people that look for guitars like yours for repair projects. The neck removal steps that were posted by rlrhett give you a very good idea of what is involved in this project. One thing to keep in mind is you will need some special tools to steam and heat the neck joint. If you have the proper tools the job is simplified. You can find a variety of videos and heaps of information on the subject. The job is somewhat simplified as you have no finish to damage. You also have no finish to protect the wood. With no finish on the guitar some precaution to protect the wood around the neck joint is probably a good idea before any water or steam is used.

  16. #15

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    One option you could do and I call it the Bill Barker method, since he did not like to remove necks, he would put a new fingerboard on the guitar. I effect you simply figure what you need and allow the angle to be correct. If you do not have much to go then I do think this method is fine, maybe not the best depending.

    Personally I see this as you are out nothing so pop the neck off and put it back on right. After all it is only time and money right?

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Cushman
    If you are interested in repairing guitars this project would be a good way to learn. If not there are other people that look for guitars like yours for repair projects. The neck removal steps that were posted by rlrhett give you a very good idea of what is involved in this project. One thing to keep in mind is you will need some special tools to steam and heat the neck joint. If you have the proper tools the job is simplified. You can find a variety of videos and heaps of information on the subject. The job is somewhat simplified as you have no finish to damage. You also have no finish to protect the wood. With no finish on the guitar some precaution to protect the wood around the neck joint is probably a good idea before any water or steam is used.
    Hi Matt. I already have seen some of these videos. I'm just wondering right now, if it's possible to it without to many of these special tools. I will consider it. You're right about protecting the wood. Thx.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    One option you could do and I call it the Bill Barker method, since he did not like to remove necks, he would put a new fingerboard on the guitar. I effect you simply figure what you need and allow the angle to be correct. If you do not have much to go then I do think this method is fine, maybe not the best depending.

    Personally I see this as you are out nothing so pop the neck off and put it back on right. After all it is only time and money right?
    It's an interesting idea, but I'm quite sure that the change in angle that is required here is much more than i possible through change of fretboard somehow. Yes it's all about time and money - mostly time actually. These days I'm asking myself if I want to spend the little spare time I have building guitar(s) or actually playing them!!

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Side question ... from a brit

    In the USA do you guys spell
    too or to ?

    (as in too much or to much)

    how is it taught in school English lessons
    No right or wrong ... just interested

    It is not taught in "English" lessons, it is taught in "grammar" lessons (and your post was on Independence Day).

  20. #19

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    Here's a weird thought, looking at that picture from the side. So part of the purpose of the neck angle is to allow for a bridge, since the top plate swells upwards to its highest point where the bridge will go. Your guitar doesn't have that neck angle... but looking at the picture, how about making and installing a flattop style bridge (assuming the geometry is right)? It's not going to sound like an archtop and it might not even be doable. Might even be an asinine suggestion.

    FWIW "too," "to" and "two" are used in the same fashion in British English and American English. Except far too many people can't get homonyms right, so they use (in particular) "to" when they should use "too" and vice versa. Sometimes it's just a typo or they dictated to their phone or something like that; sometimes they just didn't learn the correct usage; sometimes they just don't care about accuracy and good use of one of the things that make humans a unique life form.
    Last edited by Cunamara; 07-07-2017 at 11:49 PM. Reason: clarification

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Twizt
    I was thinking the same thing about volume and projection. A more "treblish" guitar could very well be the consequence as well. Most likely I will dissapointed, so I need to fix the neck ... *sigh* ... or burn the stupid thing.
    Fix that neck. You're already burned for the money, so what do you have to lose vs what you have to gain? It's already a write-off -- get what value you can out of it and if you get lucky you'll still have a player on your hands. Pull an inlay, inject some steam, take 'er apart, and learn some stuff.

  22. #21

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    Have you strung it up yet? If so what's the bridge height?

  23. #22

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    I've pulled out a couple of hofner neck joints which are easy because they are mortice and tenon. I also pulled out a neck on a Gibson J-45 and it was a horrible job. The rims were very badly cracked, the back in 3 pieces and the tops so bad it needed to be remade which is why I took it out. The thing I realised with that guitar is that the tapered dovetail has the most amazing mechanical fit. In fact when I was putting it back in, just moderate hand pressure, stuck it so well in the body that I had to use quite some force on the jig to push it back out again. I beieve that guitar would have been fine without using any glue in the neck joint. I would hate to do that job again. I imagine if the dovetail is parallel walled then it might not be quite as hard, but I found it a horrible job. Perhaps some of the expert guitar makers here could share a few tips.

  24. #23

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    A well made dovetail holds on own, not a lot of glue needed.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    A well made dovetail holds on own, not a lot of glue needed.
    totally agree in principle, however in real world applications, much tougher...not only is it dependent on luthiers precision carving skills, but wood used (it's age/ humidity content) and even the type of glue used


    in a one man luthiers shop, i'd expect the combination of it all...but on a larger manufacture level..you are taking your chances

    deacon mark, always appreciate your singular point of view!..not that i always agree, but always very helpful!

    cheers

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    Side question ... from a brit

    In the USA do you guys spell
    too or to ?

    (as in too much or to much)

    how is it taught in school English lessons
    No right or wrong ... just interested
    There's English as a language, then there's American, where anything goes. Covfefe. Bad. Very bad!

    David