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Hi. I know this is a burnt out topic. But I have to ask: On my Ibanez archy, as is on many guitars, the Low F is very sharp. I have a 56 flatwound here. I took it to Gcntr. Gal there filed the break angle which helped but it's still too sharp compared with the octave F on 4th str.. I am thinking, as long as I don't file the slot so deep as to cause the open E to buzz, only deep enough to get a good F, what would the danger be? Isn't it true every note above the F/1st fret (F# on up), actionwise, is only going to be influenced by the saddle height, not the nut ? Doesn't it stand to reason that if I go really s l o w I will wind up with a way closer F ? Or, is it, in order to achieve this F the E will, in fact, buzz ?!.....Thanks, M...
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04-27-2017 07:14 PM
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First of all in even tempered tuning all the notes fretted are not dead on. Personally if it is a good guitar I would pay a few bucks to get it to a pro to correct. I cannot speak for the person you took it to first but I have my doubts. The worst case scenario is you go too deep and need a whole new nut. If that happens then we are taking about a much more expensive repair and a pain. Believe me when you go too low sometimes you can cure that problem without a new nut but it is not the same as a properly set up guitar/nut action at the first fret.
What kind of a guitar is this and what is the action at the 12th fret and neck relief? If you understand all these terms and how they work you could do this yourself. I have a whole set of files that are dedicated to the task and they are not cheap but do the job correct.Last edited by deacon Mark; 04-27-2017 at 07:31 PM.
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You don't set the intonation on a guitar at the nut! Also, if you file the slot too low it won't be just the open E that buzzes. Get your guitar to a competent tech asap.
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If you file a little too deeply, you can use the baking soda and crazy glue fix. StewMac explains it in detail, but you basically put some baking soda in the slot, then a little cyanoacrylate (crazy glue) and it sets very hard very quickly. Then you use your file again, to go just deep enough. It's not an ideal fix, but it works pretty well. The fill isn't quite as hard as cow bone, but very close. I would advise buying a set of feeler gauges. Stack enough together to reach the height of the frets, then another couple of thousandths, put them up against the nut, and file to the gauges. That prevents going too low. You can use the strings, fretted before and after the gauges, to find the fret height. It ain't rocket science.
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Yes, well the saddle height and the neck relief.
Originally Posted by MarkInLA
The intonation at the first few frets is very much affected by nut height. For all practical purposes after around the 7th fret an excessively high nut will not really harm intonation.
In principle, yes - getting the nut height down to the same height as the frets is a great way to go.
But doing so is not as simple as it may sound. First you need to make sure the string has settled into the slot and has been fretted VERY hard just forward of the nut. Otherwise, you could set the nut height within a brand new string, which will "bow up" slightly as the imperfectly flexible steel moves out of the slot and heads bridge-ward. Then later the string takes on a bend from being played in low fret positions and you have open string buzzes.
This is all described rather well by Frank Ford at Frets.com.
Stewmac describes nut height as a clearance above the first fret. Now of course this clearance is also affected by the bridge, so in my opinion it is an excessive dumbing-down of then question. Stay with the Frets.com explanation for checking nut height.
ChrisLast edited by ptchristopher3; 04-27-2017 at 07:50 PM. Reason: spelling
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I use bone dust (fee, fie, fo, fum,...) and CA to fill slots. In my opinion it is as durable as the original cow.
I respectfully VERY MUCH disagree with feeler gauges for setting a nut. This is flawed in several ways, but seems appealing to many, so there you go.
Chris
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Thanks for responses thus far. I have a straightforward tech question within the same topic. Can someone tell me what the distance in millimeters or inches should be from the bottom of the Low E nut slot on fret side of nut to the top of the first fret (And, no, StewMac does not address this. And in fact the one nut slot he skips over is this gapingly, fat, low E string, hardly even in a slot on the olden demo guitar he's nut filing !) ?
If I had this measurement I could know just how much bone I can safely remove. My gut guess is it's around 3/64" space....M
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I do my setups by feel, which I both recommend and recommend against...I have screwed up setups over the years while I was learning but in the mistakes I always learned something. So now I just do it by eye and ear. I like a straight neck so I set it straight, get the action mostly where I want it at the bridge and then press down the 3rd fret and look at the clearance between the first fret and string. Really I just want to see a little light passing through there - very close, maybe about the thickness of a sheet of printer paper. Now I can do this easily (just did it today for a student) and I think it is worth learning because so many instruments come with the nut slots so high so if you plan on getting more guitars over the years (don't we all) then you will be able to get the nut slots right on then without having to take them out to someone every time.
I'm sure that measuring makes it easier to learn with less mistakes but really this is not difficult although it is easy to mess up if you go too fast and take out too much material (but then you get to learn how to fill it). Just make sure that you are fretting the string at the 3rd fret when you are measuring rather than measure the unfretted string.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Mark, Originally Posted by MarkInLA
VERY respectfully to Stewmac, this is not a good way to determine the optimal nut slot height at all. It does not isolate the important variables.
Getting optimal nut height is really critical to a superb (as opposed to a more or less not awful) setup.
IN PRINCIPLE: The bottom of the nut slot would be the same height above the fingerboard as the top of the first fret.
Measuring this with feeler gauges is FAR less accurate than using the string, nut, and frets themselves. It is a LONG story as to why, so I will try to stick to just how to best do it.
Havng the slot too high means difficulty playing in low positions AND intonation issues (sharp notes) in low positions.
IN BEST PRACTICE: The nut slot height is set by first fretting a new string quite hard at the first fret. Really push it down until the string contacts the fingerboard. This ensures that the string has taken on the slight bend it will have as it leaves the front end of the nut.
Now fret the string at the third fret. Push the string down between the second and third fret until the string makes contact with the second and third frets. Do not push down extremely hard.
Now observe the clearance of the string above the first fret. Ideally this clearance should be as close to zero as possible while ensuring that it is not less than zero. A clearance equal to the thickness of a sheet of paper is too much for an optimal setup. I suggest looking for light passing between the string and first fret, then touching the string to see how far it moves to make contact with the first fret (while still pressing down and making contact with the second and third frets).
This clearance should be as close to zero as you can make it while making sure it is not less than zero.
Again, using feeler gauges on an unfretted string is far less accurate.
Hope this helps.
Also, I may have missed your comment, but exactly what tool are you using to cut the nut slot?
Chris
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I don't really understand this - can you explain what else would buzz and why it would not just be the open E? Thanks in advance. Originally Posted by whiskey02
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Well, I, for one, do use the feeler gauge method, and it has worked well for me for many years. Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
I use .010 for the 1st string and one thousand more for every string as the starting point, so it's .011 for the 2nd, 012 for the 3rd, 014 for the 4th, .015 for the 5th and .016 for the 6th. But to be honest, I don't recall any requests to touch it any further. Most of my customers use the .012-052 set, and it has worked well every single time.
I also favor the use of compensated nuts, like the Earvana one. It makes the chords C, A and E sound good in the first position.
All fretted notes stay within a two-cent of the tempered-scale pitch, so I find it appealing, just as my customers do.
It IS flawed, just as the tempered scale is.
But Christopher, what's your beef with it? What exactly is what it doesn't make it work for you? I wonder...Last edited by LtKojak; 04-28-2017 at 06:25 AM.
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I've used that method and it works fine. Just be sure to prep and protect the surrounding area. CA has a habit of going where you don't want it. Originally Posted by sgosnell
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Are the other notes on your low E string intonated properly or did I miss that?
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Well.. I do this infrequently and use the tap method. Then I mess it up and do-over until it's right (several iterations). However, if you put a capo on say the 10th fret or so to take the bridge out of the equation it would seem that a feeler gauge would work. I can see where it would appeal to various completionist obsessions suffered by guitar players. Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
Not arguing.. I just hack at this sort of thing. But I am curious as to the observed downfalls in this approach.Last edited by Spook410; 04-28-2017 at 05:00 PM.
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I'm with Rio on doing your own setups. With all the information on the web, you can learn. It's seems hard and unfamiliar at first and there are tools you need along with a good place to work. But once you have nut files, slotted rules, truss rod wrench, string gauge in hand you'll find it quickly becomes a familiar task. Except for setting relief, an area where caution and going slow is important, you can fix what you mess up. I actually went one step further down this rabbit hole and level my own frets which is also kind of gratifying.
A set up should not be left to an average big box tech. They never seem to take the nut down to where it's supposed to be and believe that more neck relief is always good.
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Hi Spook, Originally Posted by Spook410
Hope all is well with you.
The feeler gauge method, in my opinion, gives a feeling (get it?) of objectivity that comforts many. But it has some pitfalls.
First the "action" of the string over the first fret is affected by the nut height and the bridge height. So you are not isolating the nut height variable.
Using your method of a capo helps of course (and shows that you actally "grok" the situation, which some ostensible luthiers do not).
But if you capo at the 10th, THEN adjust for more or less zero relief, why use a feeler gauge at all? Just file the slot until you are as close to the height of the first fret as practical without being below that height.
The feeler gauge can be held at slightly the wrong position on the FB, which has a radius. AND it is easier to see the height of the string above the first fret vs. a feeler gauge.
Soooooo,....
Use your capo (set well below "stun") between the 2nd and 3rd frets (so relief is now out of the equation) and just use the first fret as your tool.
It works.
It removes other variables.
AND please remember, we are talking about a superb setup here. A "really not entirely awful" setup can be done by a basic tech using a feeler gauge. This happens all the time and many are VERY happy with it.
I do not at all criticize the garden variety setup practices, I just disagree with them as being better in any way at all except that they make it more procedural - which can be a big benefit for a limited tech.
I just find it faster and easier to do it in a more accurate way.
My opinion.
Chris
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In my opinion:
Getting the nut right is the essential part of a superb setup.
So first we isolate the other variables.
Then we get the nut set as described above in various posts.
Only then can you realy set relief and action.
But again I am taking about a custom superb setup.
Surely many can do a much better than factory setup using feeler gauges and not isolating the nut.
I just see no reason to do this since you can do a better job at no greater time or material cost.
Chris
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The feeler gauges allow cutting the slots quickly, while preventing cutting them too deep. Just file to the gauge stack, and you're close, but not too deep. Then you can fine-tune as you like. If you're in a hurry, it will get you close. If you're not, you can take your time and get the slots perfect. I fret the strings so they're on the frets, stack the gauges to that depth, and it's exactly the fret height, give or take a thou. I usually add a couple of thousandths just for safety's sake, and usually cut the slots to a thousandth or so higher than the frets, because they will wear with tuning, and I don't want to have to do the job again. But everyone is free to do this however they like. I just don't buy your argument, though. Properly used and measured, the gauges give you the exact height you need without having to stop and test every couple of minutes. I've done it by marking the nut with a pencil, and that works, but I still prefer having some steel under the file, just in case. My hands are old and imperfect.
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Of course do as you see fit. The steel and cow bone do not care about our opinions.
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Hi sgosnell,
Was thinking about this some more,...
Defintely no need to "buy" anything, since there is nothing for sale here.
What strikes me as funny about the feeler gauge method is how it includes variables you want to exclude and can exclude variable you want to include.
So for a dumbed-down production method for OK-ish results I see the benefit.
And for wanting steel tools and decimal-digits as a source of comfort, I see the attraction.
But one needs to either include harmful variables like bridge height and neck relief, OR jump through hoops to avoid them using the gauges. (As opposed to simply not including the unwanted variables in the first place.)
Further, using gauges based on fret height includes transfers of very small measurements and the associated errors these cause vs. just using the frets themselves.
And depending on which (seemingly absurdly) convoluted process one uses to accommodate the gauges, one can miss the very important variable of the imperfect flexibility of the string and the small radius is creates when breaking over the front edge of the nut. (I suppose this is the funniest part of all of this - working hard to unwittingly remove an important variable to allow the use of an ostensibly precise tool.)
For an OK-ish setup and a simplified process for a technician to follow I see the benefit. And for feeling comforted by tools despite the multiple opportunities for error in this case, I see the appeal.
But for the best possible set up for playability and low position intonation it is just feeding the wrong beast.
But certainly MANY techs and players are very very satisfied with such a method, so certainly no need to buy into anything here at all. Close enough is almost always far better than the typical factory setup.
Thanks for the discussion on this.
Chris
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The thread was started by someone with no experience, who wants to try it himself. The odds of his being able to do a professional job strictly by eye, the first time, are rather slim. It's much more likely that he can do an acceptable job without cutting too deep if he uses something as a stop for the files. With years of experience, one can do it by eye, and I've done it that way, but I no longer do it that way. Experience has taught me that safety nets are a good thing. Perhaps you missed the part where I said the gauges are just to get the slot heights close, and then more work can be done as necessary to get a precise slot. And sometimes a perfect nut isn't the objective. If the owner needs to be playing in half an hour, one needs to get something done quickly, and with assurance that the slots aren't too deep. Different situations call for different methods. But if you're doing the slotting, you're certainly free to do it however you like.
Last edited by sgosnell; 04-29-2017 at 11:26 AM.
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Hi sgosnell,
Yes I definitely understand and have the impression that the OP can sort out the opinions here and find his best solution. Thanks.
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I thought you were supposed to angle
the File at about half the headstock angle ...
to give a clean leading edge , and minimise
string binding in the slot ?
If that's correct ...
How could you manage that with
the feeler gauge method ?Last edited by pingu; 04-29-2017 at 02:15 PM.
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Hi Pingu,
I agree yes.
The ideal (oh god, will set off some hack by saying this) slot is arguably something like 1/2 the head angle but also rounded at the back end (toward the tuners) to avoid a sharp edge there.
This is a funny thread in my view. The OP is asking a very subtle and nuanced question regarding both playability ad intonation. So the answer requires a fairly involved view on what is actually happening.
But yes, IN MY OPINON (gasp) you are 100% right. And indeed there is no magic tool to do this beyond actually understanding the situation and working with some care.
In my opinion.
Chris
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Good man , are you the same PTChris Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
Who used to be one here a while ago ?
(I'm the same Pingu)
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