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In continental Europe the comma is used in place of the decimal point. And the point in place of the comma as a 000 separator. 10.000,00 = 10,000.00.
Originally Posted by citizenk74
Wow! I know they are hard to find, but 169,00 Euros is a bit steep. Maybe that comma should be a decimal point?
"Let's eat Grandma!" "Let's eat, Grandma!"
Commas save lives. And sometimes money.
That Euro 169,00 price includes 19% MwSt i.e. sales tax.
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04-09-2016 02:20 AM
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FWIW, my experience with sourcing in China (not specifically guitar items) is that everything looks alike because it is being made a one factory. The government decides that X city will be the "guitar" city, for eg. They clear land of annoyances like people and build the factory. They will even set up "show" workshops with craftsmen tailing away on high quality parts. But that's not where thing are really being made.
US and EU are courted to outsource their premium brands to these craftsmen. The sample quality is exceptional. Once the order comes in it is filled at the one grimy unsafe hellhole factory that does all the brass parts. Whether it goes to the Epi/Gibson plant, a Japanese buyer, or Ebay they are all the same. At best the top quality parts go to the main buyer with the seconds going to eBay buyers at "trade shows".
That's why fake Grover's all basically are the same, the same tailpiece shows up everywhere, etc.
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FWIW, my experience with sourcing in China (not specifically guitar items) is that everything looks alike because it is being made a one factory. The government decides that X city will be the "guitar" city, for eg. They clear land of annoyances like people and build the factory. They will even set up "show" workshops with craftsmen tailing away on high quality parts. But that's not where thing are really being made.
US and EU are courted to outsource their premium brands to these craftsmen. The sample quality is exceptional. Once the order comes in it is filled at the one grimy unsafe hellhole factory that does all the brass parts. Whether it goes to the Epi/Gibson plant, a Japanese buyer, or Ebay they are all the same. At best the top quality parts go to the main buyer with the seconds going to eBay buyers at "trade shows".
That's why fake Grover's all basically are the same, the same tailpiece shows up everywhere, etc.
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I came across this ad on Reverb for a vintage zig zag tailpiece for a Gibson 175. I happen to be looking for one, but something about this one seems off. To my eyes, it looks more like a modern reproduction - and a bad one at that - than a vintage Gibson tailpiece. However, I'm no expert, so I thought I'd get some informed opinions.
Here's the link:
https://reverb.com/item/2387834-gibs...intage-es-175d
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1958 - 1963 and it's chrome? IIRC chrome didn't show up until 1965 or later. And the square mounting should be tapered like this
Last edited by MaxTwang; 06-18-2016 at 09:17 PM.
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I'd be cautious. Typically on the real ones the zig-zag piece either actually or almost touches the center strut. There is a legit guy who sells aged repro tailpieces (doesn't lie about it) but some probably sell such as vintage. The hallmark look of the real thing is the tubing coming right up to the center piece. The VOS 1959 ES175s get it right, but ironically the Gibson ES165 didn't back in the 1990s.
-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf
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Checked Ingraham and chrome comes in ca. 1967
-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf
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That's what I thought. I'm going to pass on this one. Seems very shady to me.
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That tailpiece is a repro and can be bought from All Parts for about half that amount.
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Fake,
what the real ones look like, a little expensive for a good reproduction but accurate,
http://www.crazyparts.de/images/img9924_590.jpg
Last edited by abelljo; 06-18-2016 at 11:43 PM.
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Or just get a real, old one. Here's what the original, nickel-plated version looks like, complete with 55 years worth of original patina. If this is what you seek, I have one - feel free to PM me.
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I have one of these on my ES165 and can vouch for the quality. Crazyparts describe them as the genuine article and in fact it was Gibson that directed me to their site when I tried to get one from them. They are indeed expensive but there didn't appear to be any other option apart from paying even more for a vintage one. Originally Posted by abelljo
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One reason third-party sellers can claim it's the real thing is that when Gibson returned to this style tailpiece, rather than manufacture it themselves or commission it specifically, they just went for aftermarket parts. Originally Posted by stoneground
But like the real L-5 tailpiece, the real zig-zag is not available through the traditional after-market sources.
These also had a reputation for breaking at the hinge.
-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf
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The implication is therefore that Gibson now source their nickel plated zig-zags from the same place as Crazyparts do. I had not heard any reports before that these were also prone to breakage in the same way as the cheap Gold plated 165 tailpieces. Anyway, if they are defective we will no doubt hear soon enough from a horde of disgruntled 175 VOS owners! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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I don't think they outsource the zigzag tailpiece now. Gibson and the new Epiphones seem clearly to have proprietary parts. Originally Posted by stoneground
But in the 1990's, this was used on the ES165 Herb Ellis models and it is common knowledge the tailpiece was not a Gibson part. The tune-o-matic bridge, for example is branded as a Gibson part. But the tailpiece is not. Some of this is documented in Adrian Ingraham's book on the ES175.
On the breakage issue, I will have to hunt for the source on that. I believe, though, that the failure of a few of the aftermarket tailpieces, combined with their inauthentic appearance (used even on a few VOS 1959 ES175s) prompted Gibson to return to its proprietary design and manufacture.Last edited by lawson-stone; 06-19-2016 at 08:58 AM.
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Very cheap/bad plating job too.
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I'm not clear how one distinguishes a 'proprietary' part from the Crazyparts item that Gibson seems to have used at one point. Is there some identifying mark? My tailpiece has a very authentic appearance and seems identical to the vintage item pictured by Hammertone apart from the 55 years patina. It also seems odd that if Gibson had sourced a suitably authentic tailpiece that they would bother re-manufacturing them in house. Anyway, this is all becoming a little speculative without some facts from Gibson and they might not be very forthcoming with information. If the tailpiece breaks I'll certainly let you know! Originally Posted by lawson-stone
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Originally Posted by lawson-stone
'65 actually. but you might see a mix of chrome and nickel on a guitar in the first year.
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I found that the Epiphone ES175 Pro's tailpiece is very close as well, but doubt you'll find one unless someone removed it for a Bigsby or something, but keep an eye open.
https://www.ghislerimusica.it/images...ES175%20WR.jpg
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Here's the tailpiece from my 1960 ES-175, which I've had since the early 80's. Aside from the case and the abr-1 this guitar is all original. $425 w/ amp was a lot of money back then for a beat-up guitar.
Last edited by MaxTwang; 06-19-2016 at 02:25 PM.
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Well, if anyone has a mid-60s chrome zig zag they're looking to sell, please PM me. I definitely passing on that Reverb listing.
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Interesting that Gibson did not get this right in 2006 either. Recently acquired an '06 '59 reissue-style es175 and the tailpiece is obviously different in this regard.
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There are two Epiphone ES175 Premiums on reverb right now selling for about $500. An enterprising person could buy one, swap it with the other tailpiece that is "almost" and resell (admittedly, for less given the change) the guitar or keep it as a beater.
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My 2014 1959 got it right, so somewhere along the way Gibson revisited the authenticity factor. Originally Posted by ksteijn
Mine even has the skinny frets. Does the 2006 have those?
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It's funny how the original manufacturers, er...the companies that hold title to the name of the original manufacturers--i.e., Fender of Corona, Gibson of Nashville/Memphis, etc.--seem to not always be able to get the stuff right. (Remember when CBS/Fender lost the jigging for the Fender Telecaster in the 70s and came out with those weird shaped bodies? Or, how about when Fender returned to the smaller headstock for the Stratocaster? It didn't look much like the pre-1965 version.) This is what happened to the zig-zag tailpiece on the ES-175. Goodness knows what would happen if they attempted a Vibrola.
The point is, the "real" companies are making reproductions just as surely as the imitators are, these days. This isn't to say that they are bad. Heck, a L-5CES is a whale of a guitar. It's just...in comparison with, say, a 1959 L-5CES a 2016 L-5CES is...hmm?...L-5ish. It's more L-5ish than any other imitation that I am aware of, but it's a carefully crafted tribute to something that was not CNC-routed, but built by learned hands in K'zoo back in the day. (Yeah, I know a lot of hand finishing goes into the 2016 L5, and I have seen the old pin router that Gibson used to rough-remove wood prior to hand working the top and back plates. Heritage uses it still.)
A Fullerton Fender from that same period is certainly different from one made in Corona or Scottsdale. A Custom Shop No-caster is a terrific guitar. I think, however, 99/100 guitarists who picked up a well maintained 50s Tele would still say it is a better guitar--independent of comparative values in the marketplace.
Things change. You know, Mozart would flip were he to hear a modern orchestra playing one of his works. He'd say, "That's not the way it's supposed to sound." Violins and other instruments--especially the piano--have changed substantially. Musical tastes and interpretations have changed, too. I play classical bass. The bass has changed profoundly from the baroque period. Mozart would, first of all, find orchestral music flipping LOUD. Stringed instruments have really gotten much louder than in his day. Even the instruments from his day are louder now. The necks have been changed and the neck angles have been increased, giving the instruments much more projection.
The zig-zag is the least of it, but it is certainly emblematic. Sorry for my rambling dissertation on this. Heraclitus was right, though, "you cannot step into the same river twice."
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