The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76
    So if we're talking acoustic qualities, and if you accept the premise that there are great archtop guitars and you want one, you have limited choices:

    - Find a great vintage guitar
    - Go through more recent factory guitars until you find a great one
    - Buy a boutique guitar
    - Have a custom guitar built

    Each approach has it's own challenges.

    If you don't believe there are great acoustic archtops versus good/average/poor, then I think you need to play more guitars. If you feel it simply doesn't matter, that's a pity because you're missing one of the joys of guitar playing. And if you can't afford it, then you are still in luck. You may not be able to acquire a great guitar without stumbling upon one, but you can still get really good guitars pretty cheap. This is more true than I've ever seen.

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  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    unfortunately, archtops seem to be few and far between at guitar shows these days (at least in ohio). Last nice one I saw was a '70s byrdland at the columbus guitar show selling for $1850 about 10 years ago. I told the guy I wanted to buy it and while I was was getting money out of my wallet and conferring with my friend a rep from chicago music exchange reached over my shoulder with $1800 in his hand and said I'll take it. These are the same guys who run reverb.com !
    not the case elsewhere. Ohio is not a thriving bustling place.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    I agree 100%. I'm not sure why so many folks have to get dismissive and accusatory. Again, I will say that I took this thread to be a true conversation about the pros and the cons of buying a custom instrument. I haven't heard a single person say that if you're not good enough you should play a samick or that rich guys can't play or that all boutique guitars are worse than gibson. A lot of these arguments are just reactionary and defensive. I personally would buy a custom instrument if the price were right, if the wait was short, and if there were a trial period. Anybody who can afford a custom made instrument has the right to get one. I've said that a bunch of times and yet folks want to start in with strawman arguments saying that folks are contesting their desire to get a custom made piece.
    Jack - the thing is, this topic comes up every so often and it is so predictable what people will say. You, for one, have been very consistent. And so have others, including me.

    In previous threads we had "cork sniffer guitars", then buyers of fine guitars were compared to people who had to have Porsches. Now it's trophy wives. And - the criticism is very transparently tied to price sensitivity. Any half awake reader can decipher that.

    Then the other camp will dredge up examples of pianos, flutes, violins, classical guitars, etc., etc., to make the point that $15 - $30K really ain't squat for a good instrument. And me? I like to say "some people buy Benedettos, some people buy bass boats". (I admit to stealing that line from an art dealer friend of mine, but he said it about oil paintings).

    Here's the point - all of this is counter-productive and detracts from the conversation.

    So here's a proposal - when we talk about guitars let's just talk about guitars. And here's another idea, let's not presume that a darker sound is "superior" to a brighter sound. Further, let's not presume that less resonant is preferable to more resonant. Let's just say that they're different characteristics, and some players will prefer one over the other. (kind of like with cedar vs. spruce in the classical guitar world.)

    What might be more productive would be to compare guitars in a similar class - like a car magazine does. They compare everything from sub-compacts to supercars, and everything in between. We don't need to go that far, but we could at least compare carved vs. carved and laminate vs. laminate in price ranges such as

    $2K - $4K
    $5K - $8K
    $10K - $14K
    $15K - $22K
    $25K and up


    Then we could skip all that other crap. Maybe.
    Last edited by fumblefingers; 06-06-2015 at 10:29 AM.

  5. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    if you want a great guitar as a status symbol like a trophy wife, go for it but if you want a better sound, you'd be better off putting the time into practicing.

    having said that, there's nothing wrong with wanting a great guitar. I'm just unconvinced that spending $10k on a boutique instrument gets you a better sound than a 175 or L5.

    I'd like to hear some audio proof of this.
    Op, if you are shallow like me, have a trophy wife like me, purchase guitars as status symbals like me, then I strongly recommend that you give Bill Comins a call. Bill is a Prince and will build you a guitar so good that even the drunk chick in the third row could pick it out over a MIK counter part.

    Seriously, Bill is the man and there is no question he will build you what you want in a reasonable amount of time.

  6. #80

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    I can only speak for myself, but I ordered a custom guitar because I wanted some specific features I thought would make the instrument more comfortable and, well, playable for me. I wanted a laminate, to reduce the effects of our hot, humid summers and cold, dry winters. I wanted a small body of intermediate depth (because I find a small body with full depth to be just as uncomfortable as a full-size guitar). And I wanted a neck that fit my small hands and stubby fingers.

    I looked, but I couldn't find a factory guitar with that combination of features; I guess the the Sadowsky 15 inch and the Benedetto Bambino came the closest. I originally planned to order from Tom Painter, whose prices were incredibly low, but he stopped building. I went with Victor Baker instead. I had the guitar 9 months after I sent my deposit. The instrument is everything I wanted. And it cost me about what a new GB-10 or ES-175 would have cost, and less than a new Bambino or Sadowsky.

    I have a friend who insists there are two ways to buy gear, whether you're talking about golf clubs or guitars. One way is to prowl the second-hand market, buy and try, resell won't you don't like until you find what you do like. The other way is to decide what you want and then spend the money to get it. Ordering custom certainly falls into the second category. It involves some risks, but - for me - it was definitely worth it.

  7. #81

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    My first two archtops, a Gibson L-5C and an L-4C, were both excellent guitars but the depth of their bodies made them uncomfortable for me to play for long periods, so in '68 I started playing a Byrdland instead. By the mid-70's the short-scale, skinny neck had lost its charm. Around then I bought an original Gibson L-5CT Gobel, which felt much better than the Byrdland, but had no pickups. I really wanted a 25.5"-scale, thin-body L-5CES, so I started sending requests to Gibson to build me one. Each time I did they turned me down.

    During the mid '80's I was disenchanted with the guitars Gibson was turning out and started considering other makers. There were not a lot of makers of fine archtops back then, but I did have a couple of Benedettos that I had purchased used. I called Bob, who told me he was too backed up to promise reasonable delivery time on a custom instrument.

    (At the 2007 Winter NAMM Bob had a thinline Manhattan that was a killer guitar, best of show for me. I had long before discovered that such guitars are not worth the premium over an L-5 to me, and I passed on it. It was for sale recently--passed on it yet again, although the price was much more reasonable than when first offered.)

    Jimmy D'Aquisto had no interest in making me a thin New Yorker Special, but he did point me to Roger Borys. I bought several of Roger's stock instruments, which were well-made and sounded fine; however, there were aspects of them I didn't love, including the neck profile, tall, narrow frets and lack of decoration. Eventually Roger made me five custom instruments, including a thin carved-top, that addressed my concerns. They were all nice guitars, but the process was not without difficulties. The jazz solid, semi and B120 pleased me more than the carved tops. I did do some gigging with them, but still used my older Gibsons too.

    While this was going on I kept sending my requests to Gibson. Besides the thin-L-5CES, I had hoped they would make me an ES-355 with an L-5 neck, which was inspired by a Gibson ad I had seen in downbeat in '58 that featured Andy Nelson. I was amazed when in '93 they agreed to make this for me. That process too had some angst, but I did get my guitar in '94. It's a beautiful guitar, but 21 years later is bigger and heavier than I like.

    In '96 a couple of dealers called me on the same day to tell me they had each received a thin L-5CES with a 25.5" scale. Overwhelmed to find two of what seemed like my dream guitar, I bought them both. They turned out to be gorgeous and became my main jazz gig guitars for the next eight years. Except for the tuners they were exactly what I had been requesting from Gibson for all those years.

    In the early aughts Gibson made me a few custom semis that were just minor cosmetic changes to standard products. The resulting guitars were stunningly good. I had planned to have them make me a few more, but they changed their one-off pricing structure, making it too pricey for what I wanted to have done. Instead I bought a couple that had been dealer custom ordered and found they were about as nice, and quite a bit cheaper than Gibson had quoted me.

    Over the years I also bought a number of one-offs that had been built for other players. Most of these were oddballs, some of which seem to still be making the rounds on Ebay or dealer sites. A few more one-off, thin, 25.5" scale L-5's turned up too, including a pair of florentines and a WesMo.

    All in all I owned around twenty-five custom-ordered guitars, ten of which were commissioned by me. I hadn't bought any one of them expecting it to be perfect, to change my playing or my life, or to make me better in any way. I already had fine guitars and I already played as well as I was ever likely to. I was never searching for the ultimate tone, either. I did manage to find guitars that fit me better or looked nicer to me and I had lots of fun doing it.

    What I learned out of all this is that if you wait long enough, the guitar you want may turn up without you doing anything, and that whatever time you are quoted for a custom order, it will be much longer. For Gibson I multiply any estimate by three. Over that time, you might well change your mind about what you wanted, which is a strong vote for just finding the guitar you want, assuming it exists and comes up for sale. In today's market there are far more opportunities for that to happen than there used to be.

    Danny W.

  8. #82

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    I'm always jumping in on old threads after the heat is gone, but what the hell.

    I have 3 good archtops ('98 L5, Sadowsky Jim Hall and a GB-10) plus a bunch of stock solid bodies and nylon string electrics. I have minimal experience with custom builds, other than a solid body Jarrett Zaffiro, a les paul style chambered with synth and piezo electronics (they are no longer doing business, I think.)

    While I admire the beauty and artistry that goes in to many custom builds and appreciate the effort it takes to stay in business as a custom builder, I'm MOST interested in the tone I hear that I admire, vs. owning something unique. For that reason, I tend to agree with Jack, in that most of the artists I admire are playing Gibsons and Ibanez models that are relatively easy to acquire. The exceptions for me that come to mind are the elusive tones of Jesse Van Ruller (Elferink, I think ) and Peter Bernstein. Much of that is technique, but teasing out those elusive overtones that both of those players get has been hard. It might have more to do with the floating pickups, coupled with their technique, than with the actual guitar design. I won't likely have the answer to that question in the near future, nor have access to those guitars to try without some significant travel expenditure.

    I could afford a $10K custom build if I thought it necessary, but it would be a stretch and I'd rather have a variety of guitars to play and variety of tones to choose from and work toward, at this point in my life. Anyway, I already have the Porsche and the hot wife and would probably have to give one of those up, if I started buying custom builds

    I think the act of pursuing the unobtainable is a healthy thing, anyway. You discover a lot along the way, by using what you have to try to get there.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpguitar
    LOL... 'cause I have one of those, and it is the best sounding archtop I've ever played too. So a factory guitar, albeit one well in excess of $10K... best of both worlds in this debate perhaps??!

    No gripes from me on the thread... it's all good.

    Im really glad it worked out for everybody!

    I upgraded the pup on the Imperial to a new RC 1000. But it doesn't matter--it's meant to be played acoustically. And what a fine voice it has!

    Thanks again!

    and yeah, just in time-Eric significantly increased his prices

  10. #84

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    I recently saw a 16" Mark Campellone guitar with 24 3/4 scale where I liked the tone. (A refreshing change from other guitars I own and have been playing). I liked the guitar, but never seem to see one with the 25" scale length that I like.

    I am actually thinking it might make sense to order one.

    Anyone ever see one with 25" scale?

    I have to wonder what the potential financial loss would be if I custom ordered one these and decided to see it within the next year or two.

    I don't see a lot of used ones around and I am having difficulty getting a handle on resale value.


    Danielle

  11. #85

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    If you go to the websites for Campellone dealers, you'll often find several used instruments for sale:
    - Music Emporium
    - Acoustic Music.org
    - Murch Music
    - Mandolin Brothers
    - Soundpure
    As well, Joe Vinikow over at archtop.com has used Campellone archtops for sale every now and again.
    Private sales are easy to find - usually on ebay.com and reverb.com

    There's a lovely Campellone for sale in this very forum for what I think is a typical resale price for a private sale.

    To answer your question about your potential loss, my guess is that it would be between 25%-30% on a new instrument. Probably similar to similar Gibsons.

    Mark's prices for new guitars are quite reasonable, IMO.

    As of July, 2015:
    "Built with a sole craftsman's attention to detail, as well as the use of efficient, small scale production methods, M.Campellone guitars offer both quality and affordability.
    All prices include hard-shell case and floating or built-in pickup. Standard, Deluxe and Special Series models are also available without pickup (deduct $200.00).
    EP Series - $3850.00
    Standard Series - $4,800.00
    Deluxe Series - $6,250.00
    Special Series - $7,595.00
    The CAMEO - $12,500.00"

    He is happy to build within a standard set of specifications:

    "All models are constructed using North American spruce and maple (European tonewoods optional depending on availability).
    Standard, Deluxe and Special Series guitars are available in 16” or 17” versions, with full 3" rim or thinline 2.25" rim.
    Available finishes*: natural, antique natural, amber sunburst, dark cherry sunburst, vintage sunburst. (*EP Series available in sunburst finishes only)
    Available nut widths: 1&11/16”or 1&3/4”
    Available fingerboard scales: 24.5”, 25” or 25.5” "
    Last edited by Hammertone; 06-21-2019 at 05:08 PM.