The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    if you want a great guitar as a status symbol like a trophy wife, go for it but if you want a better sound, you'd be better off putting the time into practicing.

    having said that, there's nothing wrong with wanting a great guitar. I'm just unconvinced that spending $10k on a boutique instrument gets you a better sound than a 175 or L5.

    I'd like to hear some audio proof of this.
    well how would we measure "better" anyway, especially when we have a preference for what a guitar should sound like (via 175 and L5)? and then there's the recording quality and on and on.

    parting shots - i read that Wes was never quite happy with his sound and drove the Fender people nuts. and a lot of ES-175 recordings sound like poop to me.

    what can we do? i think people have preferences

    cheers.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Isn't an L5 a $10K instrument these days?
    retail, yes.

  4. #53

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    here's another thought.

    have a listen to Anthony Wilson on his Monteleone, listen to the Monteleone concert with the 4 seasons guitars, listen to the Benedetto players (Howard Alden, B. Pizzarelli, others) listen to Buscarino players (Russel Malone on his Monarch) etc.

    do these guys really sound objectionable?

    i think we're slipping into the "fine" guitar vs. "affordable" guitar debate again, and when he debate goes south we have to play the "but so and so is a better player" card, and "rich people are D-bags card again.

    and round and round we go...

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Isn't an L5 a $10K instrument these days?
    used they are ~$5k

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    here's another thought.

    have a listen to Anthony Wilson on his Monteleone, listen to the Monteleone concert with the 4 seasons guitars, listen to the Benedetto players (Howard Alden, B. Pizzarelli, others) listen to Buscarino players (Russel Malone on his Monarch) etc.

    do these guys really sound objectionable?

    i think we're slipping into the "fine" guitar vs. "affordable" guitar debate again, and when he debate goes south we have to play the "but so and so is a better player" card, and "rich people are D-bags card again.

    and round and round we go...
    strawman argument. Nobody said anything about fine vs affordable or rich people are d-bags or so and so is a better player. I think some folks are getting very defensive. This thread was supposed to be a conversation about the risks and benefits of a custom archtop. Is it ok if we discuss both pros and cons or should we rename this thread to benefits of a custom archtop and delete the risk part?

  7. #56

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    I posted this in the other thread about my conversations with Jimmy D'Aquisto and thought I'd share them here. Before you guys start going crazy with accusations and chest beating, I'm not making any judgements. Just sharing an anecdote.

    The interesting thing about Jimmy is that he was "in" on the onset of the boutique-guitar revolution. He was one of the guys who needed the part time "lifestyle" guitar buyers to fund his business and yet he was still trying to cater to the professional players. A buddy of mine who's a school teacher got his d'aquisto back in the late '70s. I believe it took 3 years to get because he kept getting bumped lower in priority when Jimmy would take an order from a professional player. He talked about this in the seminar I was in with him. He said he needed the money from the hobbiests but was saddened that he couldn't make a living selling to professionals.

  8. #57

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    As much as I admire Jimmy D'A for catering to pros first, when someone orders an instrument they should not be bumped out of line. Then it becomes who's more pro Johnny Smith, or the local guy trying to make a living? I also realize this is moot since Jimmy D'A is gone, and can't answer these ?'s

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by jads57
    As much as I admire Jimmy D'A for catering to pros first, when someone orders an instrument they should not be bumped out of line. Then it becomes who's more pro Johnny Smith, or the local guy trying to make a living? I also realize this is moot since Jimmy D'A is gone, and can't answer these ?'s
    Don't kid yourself. Almost all of the big luthiers do this. They bump people for any number of reasons.


    • That big guitar show coming up
    • one of their endorsers doing a big gig with national coverage
    • pat martino or george benson want one
    • some famous rock dude needs one
    • magazine needs one for review


    This is true of almost all boutique amp and guitar companies. I used to rep for a couple guitar and amp companies and I can tell you they *ALL* do this. The other surprising thing is that the amps or guitars going to reviewers get special treatment above and beyond what the average buyer may get.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    strawman argument. Nobody said anything about fine vs affordable or rich people are d-bags or so and so is a better player. I think some folks are getting very defensive. This thread was supposed to be a conversation about the risks and benefits of a custom archtop. Is it ok if we discuss both pros and cons or should we rename this thread to benefits of a custom archtop and delete the risk part?
    Nothing is any better than a basic, modestly priced guitar. Joe Pass is better than Russell Malone. All rich people are d-bags (except this one friend of mine who's really cool -- he could afford a Bennedetto, but plays a MIC Epiphone). There I said it. It's not a strawman argument anymore. Now it's a red herring. You're welcome.

    John

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    if you want a great guitar as a status symbol like a trophy wife, go for it...
    Umm... what straight man doesn't want a hot wife? (Who said anything about trophies?) Hot women are functional partners, too. Just as expensive guitars are functional instruments.

    There will never be audio proof of it. It's too subtle for a listener to hear, but it's something I, the player, can hear - and feel, and sense. That's one of the biggest farces on the internet, the audio demo comparing two or more instruments. I've done it too, and promise that what I'm able to discern as the player is 10 times more nuanced and subtle than what a random person can hear via Youtube over the internet, after multiple layers of audio compression and crappy speakers.

    And it's not just sound in the first place - it's a bunch of intangibles, like playability (a huge one), and care taken in the smallest areas of fit and finish. Not to mention the customer service, if needed, directly from the person who made it, and likely communicated with you during the process.

    But, it must be stated that the above is an ideal - it does NOT always happen, not at all. And in that way, Jack, you're absolutely right. A high end proven Gibson is statistically a more sure thing than betting the farm on a boutique instrument. I will readily concede that!

  12. #61

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    if it can't be captured it doesn't exist IMO.

    I think it's fine if you just want it because it inspires you or makes you feel good but the arguments of you may not be able to hear it but *I can* are a bit questionable.

    I think people just like cool stuff. It's fine. No need to justify it. If you want it and can afford it you deserve to have it. My point is that given all that, i'm just not personally convinced that the boutique guitars are any better sounding or playing.

  13. #62

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    I think I will bow out of participating further in this thread given where it has already gone.

    If however, any of you ever need advice on a) selecting a luthier, or b) things that you can do before and during a commission to mitigate risk with a custom instrument (archtop or other) please feel free to reach out to me privately. I would be happy to share my experiences.

  14. #63

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    Ok so this thread started off really well, everyone was putting their opinion on guitars across without being harassed. Now its turned into the darker side of challenging peoples personal opinions and questioning their experiences without even knowing them, or what their experiences are.

    It seems some have taken offence to this thread, which is a shame because they really didn't need to. We all know there are some fantastic builders out there. I don't think that is in question. I also don't think the point is to say 'Never buy a luthier made guitar' and if someone has that opinion then thats what the thread is for, is it not?

    To not be able to challenge experiences and ideas with good experiences or better ideas and instead start making bullet points about what other people have said and being negative about it and them, imo just starts a good old fight.

    Face palms

    Just to clarify, I am and think everyone is in favour of luthiers and special guitars to some degree or other and i think we would all be sad if we couldn't have the choice, even if we didn't want it. What the thread is doing is trying to find the blind spots in that process, which has a few different facets to it. Sound, Stability, Value, reliability of builder, contractual obligations, hype and the comparative difference between how good off the shelf V:S custom actually is and what the reality could be, once the buyer receives the guitar.

    If you just trash someones point without challenging it with a better or rival point, then you are being combative which I don't think is needed, or helpful.
    Last edited by Archie; 06-05-2015 at 12:38 PM.

  15. #64

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    Another reason one may look to a custom build is if you need something other than a 6-string. When I began my search for a 7-string production archtop some years ago (pre-Eastman), the prospects were few.
    That led me to a good 5 year quest to research the custom builders and meet them at the luthier shows, even phone interview several or visit them at their shops. I knew the sound I was looking for and could reasonably describe it; just needed someone to execute it in 7-string.

    In my experience, there is a wide gamut of custom builders, and the very best are producing work miles above anything I've ever found on the shelf from a production company. That is not to say someone could find a great L5 or 175 that they really like. But one should not dismiss the experience, artistry, innovation, and artistry of a Benedetto, Ribbecke, Grimes, Palen, Manzer, Comins, Megas, Sakashta, Monteleone, Zeidler, etc...(not an inclusive list by any means, but a few of my faves). Using a reputable builder is inherently less risky, but certainly a long term contractual relationship is not without some basic risk, not unlike hiring a landscaper or a home carpenter. Just be cautious and communicate. Good luck!

  16. #65

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    John D'Angelico built custom guitars for the exact same price as Gibson charged. He also supplied his hand crafted guitars to retailers where a player might forego the custom appointments in favor of being able to try the guitar first. There are not very many boutique luthiers who do that today.

    I think there are some very talented luthiers out there whose guitars are works of art. I also think it is prudent to buy a used one for both financial reasons and also to insure a sound and feel that you will like.

    OTOH, if you want a guitar to be custom made to your specs and are not worried about the financial loss if you do not like it in the end, go for it.

    FWIW, I own two vintage D'Angelicos and have played Benedettos and Buscarinos, but the best sounding archtop I have ever played is a 1928 Gibson L-5 that belongs to a friend. For me the gold medal goes to the factory guitar. YMMV

  17. #66

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    I agree 100%. I'm not sure why so many folks have to get dismissive and accusatory. Again, I will say that I took this thread to be a true conversation about the pros and the cons of buying a custom instrument. I haven't heard a single person say that if you're not good enough you should play a samick or that rich guys can't play or that all boutique guitars are worse than gibson. A lot of these arguments are just reactionary and defensive. I personally would buy a custom instrument if the price were right, if the wait was short, and if there were a trial period. Anybody who can afford a custom made instrument has the right to get one. I've said that a bunch of times and yet folks want to start in with strawman arguments saying that folks are contesting their desire to get a custom made piece.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    John D'Angelico built custom guitars for the exact same price as Gibson charged. He also supplied his hand crafted guitars to retailers where a player might forego the custom appointments in favor of being able to try the guitar first. There are not very many boutique luthiers who do that today.

    I think there are some very talented luthiers out there whose guitars are works of art. I also think it is prudent to buy a used one for both financial reasons and also to insure a sound and feel that you will like.

    OTOH, if you want a guitar to be custom made to your specs and are not worried about the financial loss if you do not like it in the end, go for it.

    FWIW, I own two vintage D'Angelicos and have played Benedettos and Buscarinos, but the best sounding archtop I have ever played is a 1928 Gibson L-5 that belongs to a friend. For me the gold medal goes to the factory guitar. YMMV

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    but the best sounding archtop I have ever played is a 1928 Gibson L-5 that belongs to a friend. For me the gold medal goes to the factory guitar. YMMV
    LOL... 'cause I have one of those, and it is the best sounding archtop I've ever played too. So a factory guitar, albeit one well in excess of $10K... best of both worlds in this debate perhaps??!

    No gripes from me on the thread... it's all good.

  19. #68

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    I'm liking the guitar show idea ....

    Back in the old days the advice I heard for finding a great guitar was to keep $1000 on you at all times and be ready to buy it when you find it .... of course for the ultimate archtop these days it might be more like $10K or even $20K

    These days you can do the same with a credit card and a high upper limit ...

    If you can find what you want at a guitar show it might worth spending some cash for a short vacation at one of the better shows ... better yet if one comes to a location near you.

  20. #69

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    I'm lucky enough to have played many custom-built carved acoustic archtops over the years.
    IMO, there's nothing subtle at all about the differences in sound and feel between acoustic archtop instruments. They all fall in a range from superb to terrible. They either appeal to the tastes of individual consumers or not.

    As far as money is concerned, well, we are lucky to live in a society that provides us with the freedom to to say what we want about it and do as we wish with it. IMO, you either have it or you don't, you either spend it or you don't, beyond which my thoughts wander to what's for lunch. …mmm… lunch….
    Last edited by Hammertone; 04-04-2016 at 07:36 PM.

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedawg
    I'm liking the guitar show idea ....

    Back in the old days the advice I heard for finding a great guitar was to keep $1000 on you at all times and be ready to buy it when you find it .... of course for the ultimate archtop these days it might be more like $10K or even $20K

    These days you can do the same with a credit card and a high upper limit ...

    If you can find what you want at a guitar show it might worth spending some cash for a short vacation at one of the better shows ... better yet if one comes to a location near you.
    unfortunately, archtops seem to be few and far between at guitar shows these days (at least in ohio). Last nice one I saw was a '70s byrdland at the columbus guitar show selling for $1850 about 10 years ago. I told the guy I wanted to buy it and while I was was getting money out of my wallet and conferring with my friend a rep from chicago music exchange reached over my shoulder with $1800 in his hand and said I'll take it. These are the same guys who run reverb.com !

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    unfortunately, archtops seem to be few and far between at guitar shows these days (at least in ohio). Last nice one I saw was a '70s byrdland at the columbus guitar show selling for $1850 about 10 years ago. I told the guy I wanted to buy it and while I was was getting money out of my wallet and conferring with my friend a rep from chicago music exchange reached over my shoulder with $1800 in his hand and said I'll take it. These are the same guys who run reverb.com !

    That's the trick ... finding a show with a good selection of archtops

  23. #72

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    I think theres a distinction to be noted between all-inclusive 'guitar shows' and luthier specific events. Years ago, when Stephen Marchione was staring out, he'd have me play at his booth at the Long Island show, and he was one of the lone arch toppers among a sea of vintage Fenders, Gibsons and Martins, but lately at shows like the Guild of American Luthier's convention in Tacoma and the Healdsburg Guitar Festival, it's more or less all handmade axes from Stephen, Tom Ribbecke, Linda Manzer and the like. I think there's another one in Woodstock NY that I haven't played at yet, but I don't know a good central resource to find the show nearest to you.

    PK

    (In the time I was typing this, Hammertone put up essentially the same post, but with helpful links. You win this round, Hammertone.....)

  24. #73

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    There is an Acoustic Guitar show in Memphis Tenn this weekend that is bringing some well known luthiers. While leaning heavily to the acoustic guitar market, there are a number of archtop builders present according to the website. See below.


    Luthiers Page

  25. #74

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    +1 for Healdsburg. archtops galore.

  26. #75
    I don't think holding up a 1920's or 1930's Gibson as an example of a 'factory guitar' is particularly valid. Not unless there is a current factory producing guitars that sound like these. It has always been my impression that vintage guitars acquire their sound not only from how they are made and the materials used, but the aging process. This makes them unique.

    Also if current Gibson factory guitars are a higher probability of having a superior acoustic sound versus current boutique or custom instruments, someone must be getting there ahead of me because none of the ones I've played in the last few years seem to offer this. This may be true of older-than-newer Gibson guitars but since I don't have much access to those, I'll certainly take the word of those who do.
    Last edited by Spook410; 06-05-2015 at 06:24 PM.