The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Has anyone here checked out any of the luthier-specific guitar shows? I’m an endorsing artist for Marchione guitars, and I do concerts and clinics from time to time. I’ve been at the Guild of American Luthiers convention in Tacoma a few times, and the Healdsburg Guitar Festival in northern California. I used to do the old Long Island festival, but I’m not sure that happens anymore. They can be a great opportunity to meet a bunch of luthiers and test drive their instruments. I’m not going to quit playing Stephen’s guitars, but I’ve seen some really great instruments from Tom Ribbecke, Linda Manzer, Ralph Novak and Mike Doolin as well. It varies, some luthiers have axes for sale, while others just have displays, but it can help anyone seriously looking for an instrument to make some informed decisions.


    Another resource for those interested in a handmade guitar is CR Guitars in Rhienbeck, NY. It’s more of a boutique or a brokerage than a traditional guitar shop, but I think you can make an appointment and try out whatever is on hand. The owner Craig Snyder is as knowledgable about guitars as anyone, and can help steer you toward a luthier that would be a good fit. (And if you were alive in the 1970’s, you heard Craig on the radio with Elton John, Donna Summer, Ray Charles and more….)


    If there’s a player you’re aware of that is playing a certain luthier’s axes. they can be a good resource. Most folks, myself included will be generous with their time (within reason) to help you on your quest.




    PK
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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
    While I'm not the world's best player, I had these exact same considerations when looking for a great 'almost' custom built guitar. So when ready to take the plunge, I relied heavily on finding the right builder. Heritage has some of the most experienced luthiers around, didn't charge an arm and a leg to customize one of their already fine designs (obviously of Gibson origin), and finally, the cost-benefit was easily justified...in my mind. They listened to my design suggestions, gave me their input, and in the end, I got a fantastic guitar that satisfies in so many ways.

    I didn't get crazy with the options, but what I asked for, they delivered. Maybe the benefits over a factory made guitar are minimal, but no other instrument suits me like the one I had a hand in designing.

    And as for the comment about George Benson playing an "off the shelf model...", I respectfully disagree. Mr. Benson designed the GB10 and continued to have it tweaked to his exact specifications over the years. At least that's what he told me when we met. So basically the GB10 is his custom designed guitar that Ibanez replicates for the masses.

    So, Spook410, go on an take the plunge. Your criteria is spot on. Now the only issue is which builder will you go with. Whatever your choice, please keep us informed. Having your own custom built guitar can be an exciting, scary and satisfying journey. Hopefully yours ends up as wonderful as mine did.
    Benson used to play an off the shelf 400, FG100, FA510nt, Guild AA as far as I know.

  4. #28

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    Just my 2 cents worth! There are some amazing archtop builders around today so that's a big plus. I think cost and time frame are the 2 major considerations for most us w/ out unlimited resources. I went w/ Franz Elferink and a custom Tonemaster build. An amazing value w/ the Euro/$ value at the present time.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    i'm not convinced that tuning the tops and backs is necessarily a "good" thing. Tap tuning, tonewoods and such are marketing terms invented by people trying to sell stuff.

    The classic jazz guitar tones were achieved without tonewoods and tap-tuning.

    I know you disagree AH, but I don't think it gets much better (tone-wise) than johnny smith, wes montgomery, george benson, joe pass (joy spring)

    You can tap-tune all you want but is it any better?

    As an aside, I just got Pasquale Grasso's new cd recorded with his trenier. It sounds no better than a 175 IMO. Bernstein is one of the few guys playing a boutique archtop who's tone I like. Most of the big dollar archtops are purchased and played by the "lifestyle" sect. I haven't heard very many examples that make me want to ditch my gibsons, ibanez or even my aria.
    Most of what you're saying about a custom build being a less rational approach to finding a guitar strikes me as true, though I'm not sure that "ego" is the right way to frame it -- Economic decisions (in the broadest, behavioral sense) are much less "rational" than many of us acknowledge; they're largely emotional and heuristic (with a little bit of optimization here and there), so don't be too surprised by people doing stuff that doesn't make sense according to an algorithm. In that light, I'm not sure how much is going to come of a thread in which people try to actually frame that algorithm, but so far it's an interesting read.

    The Bernstein example probably makes your point best -- his guitar wasn't custom built for him; he bought it used. Also, his use of BF Fenders probably contributes a lot to your liking his tone. It seems to me, a lot of the people playing boutique archtops are also using "jazz" amps (AI, Henrikson, etc.). But please don't discourage people too much from buying custom. It's bread and circuses for those of us who will never be able to swing a $10,000 guitar.


    John

  6. #30

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    I'm definitely not of the mindset that puts boutique or individual builders on a pedestal. I don't think one should commission a custom guitar because it will sound better than a factory guitar. Among my Top 10 guitars are a Martin and three Gibsons, plus a Warmoth that I put together myself. There are three custom instruments in that pile as well.

    You should order a custom instrument because the builder offers something unique - either in dimensions, materials, construction design, aesthetics, instrument type, or frankly in any area that matters to you. Don't buy one because you think it's intrinsically made of magical pixie dust.

  7. #31

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    I know a luthier (Flattops) who charges 25K plus for his guitars and has a 10 year waiting list. His guitars are quite good, but IMO, anything over 10K for a guitar is a bit over the top.

    But if you have money to burn and a custom made guitar is what you want...have at it!

    Anyone who thinks that spending an ungodly amount of money on a guitar is a shortcut to great sound is a fool. The only way to get great sound is countless hours of practice.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    ok, here are some risks.

    I think there's some amount of ego involved with ordering a custom archtop. You're essentially saying that your needs are special and you are deserving of something completely different than the 25,000 archtops currently on the market.

    In fact, 99% of the greatest guitar sounds in history have been made with off the shelf instruments or at the very least, instruments that are already out there that were commissioned by someone else.....

    There are so many fabulous instruments already out there that you can play before you buy that unless you just have to have your own namesake model, why commission something?!?
    This is essentially my thoughts on the matter. I'm not out to tell people what to do with their money, go right ahead if it pleases you. But if I can't make good music on the thousands of fantastic guitars already out there(some that only cost a few hundred bucks...) then a custom guitar isn't going to help anything.

  9. #33

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    One of my dreams is to order a custom build from a luthier ....

    in the short term that would be one of the guys that sells between $4K and $12K ... but who can I trust in this field .. Campellone seems to have one of the best reps in this price range

    and maybe as a retirement gift to myself in 6 to 10 years I'd order a Benedetto La Venezia or a Parker ... I'd feel more comfortable with the Parker or Benedetto order ... but that would be 20 to 30K or more worth of US dollars

    Then again .. Parker may not be around when I retire ..... I suspect the Benedetto estate will keep his shop up and running when he parts from this vail of tears

    That said .. I'm not rolling in cash and I can't afford to get a dud custom build


    The only guitar that I've ordered from scratch was my Gibson Le Grand and I got very lucky with that ... it's beautiful and sounds great .... took about 8 months from order to delivery


    Looks like my best bet for the near future would be to just keep an eye out for a used 18 inch acoustic or order a new Heritage Super Eagle acoustic



    If I had the money to spare I'd be ordering custom builds once or twice a year and seeing what kind of treasures I could find

  10. #34

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    Some observations on the discussion so far:

    • Much (not all) of the discussion/opinion appears to be based on speculation from members who do not appear from their narratives to have not actually commissioned, received and owned multiple custom luthier built instruments explaining why it is not a good option.
    • Some of it also appears to be based on personal subjective value systems on sound/tone, economics/value proposition and other surprising rationale deciding who needs a custom guitar and who does not.
    • Some discussion poses that because most of archtop lutherie is based upon concepts/designs of both Lloyd Loar or Bob Benedetto that individual luthier refinements do not matter. Most things in lutherie are not revolutionary (e.g. Ken Parker) but evolutionary refinement of earlier designs.
    • It also feels very electric archtop focused vs. acoustic. Jazz is also played on acoustic instruments of a variety of types (gypsy, nylon, steel string, acoustic archtop...).
    • Lastly, I would point out, if you look at the classical guitar world (the least effient of guitars), you will find very few top concert guitarists who do not play a custom luthier made instrument.

    Food for Thought...

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
    Some observations on the discussion so far:

    • Much (not all) of the discussion/opinion appears to be based on speculation from members who do not appear from their narratives to have not actually commissioned, received and owned multiple custom luthier built instruments explaining why it is not a good option.
    • Some of it also appears to be based on personal subjective value systems on sound/tone, economics/value proposition and other surprising rationale deciding who needs a custom guitar and who does not.
    • Some discussion poses that because most of archtop lutherie is based upon concepts/designs of both Lloyd Loar or Bob Benedetto that individual luthier refinements do not matter. Most things in lutherie are not revolutionary (e.g. Ken Parker) but evolutionary refinement of earlier designs.
    • It also feels very electric archtop focused vs. acoustic. Jazz is also played on acoustic instruments of a variety of types (gypsy, nylon, steel string, acoustic archtop...).
    • Lastly, I would point out, if you look at the classical guitar world (the least effient of guitars), you will find very few top concert guitarists who do not play a custom luthier made instrument.

    Food for Thought...
    I dont think one has to have had a guitar made for himself to have played ones that have been made of others, or heard ones that are reportedly amazing, yet when listened to appear not to be and of course disappointing testimonials by the buyer once complete, in order to draw some ideas about what can happen.

    The same hype happens in the mass world too. I've never played a martin that impressed me that much, accept one from the 70's. I cant stand Taylor's and think they are the most overpriced underwhelming acoustic you can buy.

    On the other hand, I think Furch are stunning guitars for the money.

    Its always going to be hit and miss with Guitars, no matter who you are or what you want.

    The only safe way to get a guitar you like to play, like the sound of and is stable, is to buy second hand and you get to play it first and the older the better (well for stability anyway). That is a logical thought that should be weighed up when choosing.

    Even some of D'angelico's guitars started to fall apart due to bad practices.

    I think that is what often separates the people who have the money so they can do it and afford to take the risk, people who are looking for something unique, or artists who get given them for free. They dont have the same motivation and they dont get the same results.

    Which one is the worst situation to be in? The struggling artist who thinks that by plonking down his last penny will get him the guitar of his dreams or because he believes in the hype for luthier made instruments (although some hype is very deserved) and that he will have a better guitar for it and be a better player because of it.
    Thats the one that really needs to watch out imo and possibly be given a cold shower, or read this thread before taking the plunge.

    Just to put it straight, I admire people who get guitars commissioned. I love it when artists support artists in the art that they make.
    Last edited by Archie; 06-04-2015 at 03:36 PM.

  12. #36

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    I commissioned a guitar from a european luthier in 2000, so I'll weigh in.

    The economic arguments against have been well stated here, so I won't repeat them - I can confirm them.

    Looked at objectively, the only real reasons for commissioning an instrument are either that you like the work of the luthier so much you must have one of his/ her instruments, or that you want something built that isn't otherwise available. CC pickup guitars might be a good example of the second reason.

    In my case, it was a mixture of the first reason, and just that I felt like doing it at the time and the exchange rate was very good ( not a good reason, but...). The guitar duly arrived, and was excellent in nearly all respects, but I didn't bond with the instrument and subsequently sold it - another forum member has it now. I didn't bond with it because, at that time, I didn't really know what I wanted in an arch top guitar and ordered with some features that I later realised were not a great idea, aesthetically.

    Tonally, the instrument was on a par with an L5, for want of a better benchmark. Would I do it again? - no. However, what I have done is got hold of a couple of guitars which the same luthier had already made, which I liked the look of, and could return if they didn't work for me. That has been very successful, and I still have those guitars today.

    All that said, I have a lot of sympathy with JZ's point that any reasonable player needs can be covered by off the shelf instruments; the differences ( part from resale value) are really marginal - as playing instruments. As 'works of art', though, some luthier guitars easily surpass commercial instruments, aesthetically speaking.

  13. #37
    My experience is certainly limited and represents something less than an objective metric, but out of all the flat tops I've played in my lifetime, my one custom (Kinscherff) and one boutique (Goodall) are certainly among the best instruments I've encountered. This makes me lean towards the magical pixie dust theory.

    Unfortunately, hard data on archtops is elusive. I've only played a few high end instruments and they have never been set up properly as acoustic guitars so they disappoint. As for the newer Gibson's, Heritage's, and Guild's of the world, honestly I don't get it. While different and certainly better quality, they don't seem notably better as acoustics than the Yunzhi's I'm used to. So, I can chase the vintage instruments, look for the elusive 'one' in a factory model, or rely on a boutique or custom maker sprinkling some acoustic dust.

  14. #38

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    Craig Snyder is a guitar GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  15. #39

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    I've had an archtop custom made to my specification by Bill Moll and a flat-top made to very non-traditional specs by Matt Mustapick. Both experiences went without a hitch and produced exquisite instruments that I still find to be superbly responsive to my hand size and style of playing. I would highly recommend either of those luthiers. The time it took for each of them was on the long end of their initial estimates but neither promised anything precise in terms of build time which I believe was wise. Price was negotiated at the time of the contract and both required 50% up front at the time the work began. Final payment depended on my approval of the instrument in both cases.

    I have other guitars that were not made for me, and I play those guitars as much or more than the custom guitars, but the custom guitars provide a special pleasure that cannot come from the others. I doubt that either custom guitar will ever be worth more than I paid for it because neither is traditional. You could make a profit if you got, say, a good price on an L-5. I suppose the same would be true if you got a "standard" Benedetto made for you 20 years ago, but what's the point of that? The reason I got them built for me was so I could have the features I just couldn't find in off the rack instruments. Getting a custom built guitar should really be for yourself, not for re-sale.

    I say do it, if you have the time and cash, and really know what you want. Find a reputable builder whom you can trust.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    99% of archtop makers are making benedetto or gibson style archtops. Only about 1% are pushing the envelope.
    I'd say Ken Parker belongs to that 1%.


  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
    Some observations on the discussion so far:

    • Much (not all) of the discussion/opinion appears to be based on speculation from members who do not appear from their narratives to have not actually commissioned, received and owned multiple custom luthier built instruments explaining why it is not a good option.


    i knew jimmy d'aquisto personally, played many of his instruments and have played many custom, boutique instruments. If the criteria for an opinion is to have paid for and received their guitars, yes, technically you can disqualify me on a technicality. I guess I could do the same for folks who do not actually play jazz?

    • Some of it also appears to be based on personal subjective value systems on sound/tone, economics/value proposition and other surprising rationale deciding who needs a custom guitar and who does not.

    Strawman argument. NOBODY said that.


    • It also feels very electric archtop focused vs. acoustic. Jazz is also played on acoustic instruments of a variety of types (gypsy, nylon, steel string, acoustic archtop...).

    I would guess that 90% of custom/boutique archtops are made with pickups so electric guitar is a somewhat important consideration.

    • Lastly, I would point out, if you look at the classical guitar world (the least effient of guitars), you will find very few top concert guitarists who do not play a custom luthier made instrument.

    Food for Thought...
    What's that have to do with archtop making and buying? Classical guitars have evolved over centuries, electric guitar is not even 100 years old.

    Look, some folks are getting defensive. There's no need. You don't need to justify to me or anyone why you want a custom archtop. If you want one, that's fabulous and I agree that it furthers the art. This thread was about the benefits and the risks. I wanted to point out the other side, that's all. I'll unsubscribe and bow out.

  18. #42

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    In the High Price range $10K archtops I've played, I was most impressed w/ John Buscarino and Bill Comins guitars for tone and fit and finish! Would I pay that much, no way. But in fairness an new equivalent Gibson archtop is about the same price. And while they are excellent, you are not able to custom spec your Gibson at that price.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by kkfan
    I'd say Ken Parker belongs to that 1%.


    priced for them (I mean us) too.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    I know a luthier (Flattops) who charges 25K plus for his guitars and has a 10 year waiting list. His guitars are quite good, but IMO, anything over 10K for a guitar is a bit over the top.

    But if you have money to burn and a custom made guitar is what you want...have at it!

    Anyone who thinks that spending an ungodly amount of money on a guitar is a shortcut to great sound is a fool. The only way to get great sound is countless hours of practice.
    I only partially agree with this. Are you saying that a truly great guitar cannot sound better when simply strumming across an open E chord? My experience tells me otherwise.

    That said, not all guitars are created equal, not even two identical models from the same builder.

    my point is, a great guitar is a great guitar, independent of the poor sap who picks it up.

  21. #45

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    A great guitar will not sound nearly so great in the hands of an okay player as an okay guitar will in the hands of a great player...

  22. #46

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    I am confused. Are you saying that they charge too much for the product offered or that you cannot afford the product offered?

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by fumblefingers
    I only partially agree with this. Are you saying that a truly great guitar cannot sound better when simply strumming across an open E chord? My experience tells me otherwise.

    That said, not all guitars are created equal, not even two identical models from the same builder.

    my point is, a great guitar is a great guitar, independent of the poor sap who picks it up.
    and a great guitar is a great guitar, regardless of whether it was a $25k custom or an off the shelf instrument. Great wood rears it's beautiful head in unpredictable ways.

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    A great guitar will not sound nearly so great in the hands of an okay player as an okay guitar will in the hands of a great player...
    This is as true as true gets, but it's passé here on the interwebs, where gear is discussed enthusiastically among players of all stripes. A great player wants a great instrument rather than an okay one, right? Even the mediocre player with a little money and aspiration wants something nicer than an "okay" guitar.

    Homely guys with a bit of money sometimes have hot wives, too. All's fair... Most of us want nice stuff in life. Skill and tools are not ordained from above to always be commensurate.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpguitar
    This is as true as true gets, but it's passé here on the interwebs, where gear is discussed enthusiastically among players of all stripes. A great player wants a great instrument rather than an okay one, right? Even the mediocre player with a little money and aspiration wants something nicer than an "okay" guitar.

    Homely guys with a bit of money sometimes have hot wives, too. All's fair... Most of us want nice stuff in life. Skill and tools are not ordained from above to always be commensurate.
    if you want a great guitar as a status symbol like a trophy wife, go for it but if you want a better sound, you'd be better off putting the time into practicing.

    having said that, there's nothing wrong with wanting a great guitar. I'm just unconvinced that spending $10k on a boutique instrument gets you a better sound than a 175 or L5.

    I'd like to hear some audio proof of this.
    Last edited by jzucker; 06-05-2015 at 07:38 AM.

  26. #50

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    Isn't an L5 a $10K instrument these days?