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  1. #1

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    When refreting a guitar with nibs does the luthier keep the nibs or does he file them down? What is the correct way? If he files the nibs on refretting does this affect the value of the quitar?


    thanks for any info.

    edh

    P.S. sorry if this is a stupid question.
    "Ahhh - those Jazz guys are just makin' that stuff up!" - Homer Simpson

    "Anyone who understands Jazz knows that you can't understand it. It's too complicated. That's what's so simple about it." - Yogi Berra

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by edh View Post
    When refreting a guitar with nibs does the luthier keep the nibs or does he file them down? What is the correct way? If he files the nibs on refretting does this affect the value of the quitar?


    thanks for any info.

    edh

    P.S. sorry if this is a stupid question.
    There are luthiers skilled enough to keep the nibs and make it appear that the guitar never had a refret. But, it's a royal pain in the ass to do it. I had it done twice. Both times, the tech was *less than happy* about having to do it. Most techs will ask the customer if they want the original look. If so, it will require new binding and most, if not all of the time, a neck re-fin. But, almost all the time, the customer will have the luthier eliminate the nibs and fret the finger board over the binding, all the way to the end (edge) of the fret board. No nibs.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  4. #3

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    Oh . . forgot the other part of the question regarding resale value. Unless the guitar is a very vintage iconic guitar in all original condition . . (think of a real and original '59 burst) . . a refret will hard, if at all affect resale value. But, a refret on an all original '59 burst in otherwise all original condition could affect the resale value by as much as $10 Grand!! . . Or more!!
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  5. #4

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    What was the purpose of fret nibs? I like the look of them, but what was the reason companies like Gibson started doing that?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Broyale View Post
    What was the purpose of fret nibs? I like the look of them, but what was the reason companies like Gibson started doing that?
    I could be wrong but its always referred to as the hight of 'luthery' (is there such a word?) and perhaps its real application serves more as a marketing gimmick.

    I mean if it can be done on mass produced items, is it then really that hard? Or are we just supposed to believe it is in order to bestow more praise on the people doing it?

    They have no purpose as far as I know, except to annoy your guitar tech and make your guitar (more often than not) look bad, when they crack. I might also make it easier for companies who do it, to not have to make the ends of the frets as neat.

    Gibson have stopped doing it on most of their models now but I suspect it will be marketed as 'Old work luthier'y' when it appears on their more expensive instruments. You'll pay accordingly and feel like you have a better product for it.

    You wont, you'll have just payed more and built in further costs down the road.
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 01-20-2015 at 10:01 AM.

  7. #6

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    As far as I can fugure, they serve no functional purpose for the player and they are a potential source of problems (cracked nibs and/or binding if the fingerboard shrinks a little which it often does). I have never ever missed them. I have one guitar with nibs and they will shurely be gone after the first refret.
    Last edited by oldane; 01-20-2015 at 10:22 AM.
    "But if they all play like me, then who am I?" (Lester Young)

  8. #7

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    When I had my es335 refretted some years back. I asked for the nibs to be taken away and asked for less of a roll off on the fret ends...I hate it when it feels like the top E is slipping off the fretboard.

  9. #8

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    I googled them, so these are nibs.
    “I will not let anyone walk through my mind with their dirty feet.”
    ― Mahatma Gandhi

  10. #9

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    Not withstanding the ever present and totally unnecessary snideness in ArchtopHeaven's post . . I'd agree with almost all of what he said. Oldane said pretty much the same thing . . much more concisely . . and totally devoid of any snide sarcasm. Oldane is always a gentleman. Others could and should be guided by his example. But, I digress.

    As this topic has come up quite a few times in the past, it's been noted that fret board binding was done purely for aesthetic reasons . . and no, ArchtopHeaven, it wasn't to elicit praise for the craftspeople doing it. It was to further beautify an already beautiful instrument. And, IMO, it certainly does do that.

    It is considerably more difficult and time consuming . . and it requires more skill, patience and attention to detail, for a craftsperson to achieve a seamless joining of the fret end and the binding . . than it does to make a bare fret end look good at the edge of a fret board. When done correctly, a fret nib should be nothing more than an extension of the fret to the end (edge) of the fret board. If a string would *feel* the seam . . it was poorly done.

    After the frets are installed in the fret slots . . extending to the very edge of the fret board, the binding is installed at a height similar to the top of the frets. So, it will extend higher than the fret board in the space between the frets. That portion of the higher binding needs to be scraped and filed down to an equally undetectable seam, at the same height of the top of the fret board. This filing and scraping needs to be meticulous and leave no file marks on the binding and/or the fret board.

    Many of the top rated master luthiers have gotten away from doing the nibs and have chosen to extend the frets over the binding. They claim that there is "more useable fret area" and that's the reason they do it. That's just bull-s**t. They do it that was because it's much easier and much less time consuming. Another reason . . and a more plausible one, is that in the event that the guitar would need to be refretted, it can be done much easier and a good refret would be totally undectable as having ever been done. That makes good sense.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    Oldane said pretty much the same thing . . much more concisely . . and totally devoid of any snide sarcasm. Oldane is always a gentleman. Others could and should be guided by his example.
    Thank you, Patrick - and let me quote Charlie Parkers response after a very enthusiastic applause: "Thank you, thank you, but ordinary applause will do."
    "But if they all play like me, then who am I?" (Lester Young)

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    Not withstanding the ever present and totally unnecessary snideness in ArchtopHeaven's post . . I'd agree with almost all of what he said. Oldane said pretty much the same thing . . much more concisely . . and totally devoid of any snide sarcasm. Oldane is always a gentleman. Others could and should be guided by his example. But, I digress.

    As this topic has come up quite a few times in the past, it's been noted that fret board binding was done purely for aesthetic reasons . . and no, ArchtopHeaven, it wasn't to elicit praise for the craftspeople doing it. It was to further beautify an already beautiful instrument. And, IMO, it certainly does do that.

    It is considerably more difficult and time consuming . . and it requires more skill, patience and attention to detail, for a craftsperson to achieve a seamless joining of the fret end and the binding . . than it does to make a bare fret end look good at the edge of a fret board. When done correctly, a fret nib should be nothing more than an extension of the fret to the end (edge) of the fret board. If a string would *feel* the seam . . it was poorly done.

    After the frets are installed in the fret slots . . extending to the very edge of the fret board, the binding is installed at a height similar to the top of the frets. So, it will extend higher than the fret board in the space between the frets. That portion of the higher binding needs to be scraped and filed down to an equally undetectable seam, at the same height of the top of the fret board. This filing and scraping needs to be meticulous and leave no file marks on the binding and/or the fret board.

    Many of the top rated master luthiers have gotten away from doing the nibs and have chosen to extend the frets over the binding. They claim that there is "more useable fret area" and that's the reason they do it. That's just bull-s**t. They do it that was because it's much easier and much less time consuming. Another reason . . and a more plausible one, is that in the event that the guitar would need to be refretted, it can be done much easier and a good refret would be totally undectable as having ever been done. That makes good sense.

    But I've started learning Snide Guitar. Gotta keep me chops up :-))
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 01-20-2015 at 12:58 PM.

  13. #12

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    [QUOTE=

    "Many of the top rated master luthiers have gotten away from doing the nibs and have chosen to extend the frets over the binding. They claim that there is "more useable fret area" and that's the reason they do it. That's just bull-s**t."




    Actually, depending on how much the fret ends are tapered, a fret job that goes over the binding can increase the useable area of the fretboard by as much as 1/16". This doesn't matter much to a trad jazz or acoustic player, but if you bend notes or use up-and-down finger vibrato it's helpful.

    Also as the guitar ages the binding nibs can separate from the metal of the fret, causing a crack that the string can get hung up on. I've had this happen.

    I don't mind binding nibs and they look nice, but never worry about losing them during a refret.

  14. #13

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    [QUOTE=Gilpy;494912][QUOTE=

    "Many of the top rated master luthiers have gotten away from doing the nibs and have chosen to extend the frets over the binding. They claim that there is "more useable fret area" and that's the reason they do it. That's just bull-s**t."

    Actually, depending on how much the fret ends are tapered, a fret job that goes over the binding can increase the useable area of the fretboard by as much as 1/16". This doesn't matter much to a trad jazz or acoustic player, but if you bend notes or use up-and-down finger vibrato it's helpful.

    Also as the guitar ages the binding nibs can separate from the metal of the fret, causing a crack that the string can get hung up on. I've had this happen.

    I don't mind binding nibs and they look nice, but never worry about losing them during a refret.[/QUOTE]



    Who ever said that 'BS' statement is being a little unfair.

    Fret nibs as you rightly said often come away from the fret and your string gets stuck in them. Totally ruins your confidence in the guitar and decreases the amount of fret space you have.

    On the other hand, if it is a little bit of Marketing BS to get you connived to move away from it, its at least better than the marketing BS that convinces you its worth paying extra for :-)
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 01-20-2015 at 02:08 PM.

  15. #14

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    In some cases there's a lot to be said for a guitar repair person/luthier imparting their preferences on a guitar...It's wise to make a point of requesting how you actually want it to feel. That's why I made a point of asking for the frets not to be too shallow at the ends so the high E strings doesn't feel like it's slipping off the edge of the fretboard.

    Regarding archtopheaven's post...I guess binding is in essence purely decorative, and you kinda pay for the extra work involved. I like the binding vibe but on a guitar that I intend to gig and use as a tool, I can't say I want the nibs.

    I've just looked up at my Gretsch 6120 sslvo hanging above my PC monitor ... it has binding but no nibs. As it's a Setzer model - I wonder if that was his preference or just cost cutting.

    My 88 es335 really needed a refret and I used a guy called Jonathan Kinkade in Bristol. He was pretty cool in that he listened to my going on about how I wanted it to feel etc. This is going back a good 10 years but the guitar still feels great. I wanted high frets so I get "purchase" on the strings and he mentioned the binding would be liable to crack and had already cracked in a few places...so off with the nibs. I have no qualms about it.

    Nibs or no nibs - when refret time comes I'm happy to go nibless! :-)

    Weirdly, I have a Fender Nocaster that has really teeny vintage frets and a horrid camber of 7.25 or something. Usually I wouldn't even consider a neck like that but it plays like a dream. I can only put that down to it being a well built neck.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by nickyboy View Post
    In some cases there's a lot to be said for a guitar repair person/luthier imparting their preferences on a guitar...It's wise to make a point of requesting how you actually want it to feel. That's why I made a point of asking for the frets not to be too shallow at the ends so the high E strings doesn't feel like it's slipping off the edge of the fretboard.

    Regarding archtopheaven's post...I guess binding is in essence purely decorative, and you kinda pay for the extra work involved. I like the binding vibe but on a guitar that I intend to gig and use as a tool, I can't say I want the nibs.

    I've just looked up at my Gretsch 6120 sslvo hanging above my PC monitor ... it has binding but no nibs. As it's a Setzer model - I wonder if that was his preference or just cost cutting.

    My 88 es335 really needed a refret and I used a guy called Jonathan Kinkade in Bristol. He was pretty cool in that he listened to my going on about how I wanted it to feel etc. This is going back a good 10 years but the guitar still feels great. I wanted high frets so I get "purchase" on the strings and he mentioned the binding would be liable to crack and had already cracked in a few places...so off with the nibs. I have no qualms about it.

    Nibs or no nibs - when refret time comes I'm happy to go nibless! :-)

    Weirdly, I have a Fender Nocaster that has really teeny vintage frets and a horrid camber of 7.25 or something. Usually I wouldn't even consider a neck like that but it plays like a dream. I can only put that down to it being a well built neck.
    I haven't quite worked out why but I like fat frets that aren't too high. Is it because I like the string to make contact with the fretboard quickly?

    I also like fat frets because it seems with thin ones, its harder to get a clean tone/connection?
    Yes its surprising some of the things I dont know about the instrument I've been playing for 20 years lol
    Still I supose JP could have said the same.

    In regards to your G'BS its rare for the Japanese to do fret nibs. Could just be that they didn't want to do it. if he plays what they are making then his wont have them either I guess. They did do them on my D'aquisto though, thankfully they haven't cracked and its going on 13 years old.
    Last edited by ArchtopHeaven; 01-20-2015 at 02:06 PM.

  17. #16

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    I like fret nibs. They make the fret ends feel much smoother on the fretboard. They do look quite ugly when they crack though. Any respectable luthier can do a fret job with the fret ends feeling quite smooth though. My luthier charges a extra $100 to keep the nibs but I would think you would have to use the exact same size fret wire as original. When I need new frets I usually go with a fatter fret than the standard Gibson/Heritage medium fret wire.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinnyv1k View Post
    I like fret nibs. They make the fret ends feel much smoother on the fretboard. They do look quite ugly when they crack though. Any respectable luthier can do a fret job with the fret ends feeling quite smooth though. My luthier charges a extra $100 to keep the nibs but I would think you would have to use the exact same size fret wire as original. When I need new frets I usually go with a fatter fret than the standard Gibson/Heritage medium fret wire.

    I would have agreed with you on that being their only plus, till I acquired some guitars where the fret work was so good, I never felt them. That is to say they never interrupted my playing. Sure bad fret work will but good work, you shouldn't feel it at all.

  19. #18

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    [QUOTE=Gilpy;494912]
    Quote Originally Posted by

    "Many of the top rated master luthiers have gotten away from doing the nibs and have chosen to extend the frets over the binding. They claim that there is "more useable fret area" and that's the reason they do it. That's just bull-s**t."




    [B
    Actually, depending on how much the fret ends are tapered, a fret job that goes over the binding can increase the useable area of the fretboard by as much as 1/16". [/B]This doesn't matter much to a trad jazz or acoustic player, but if you bend notes or use up-and-down finger vibrato it's helpful.

    Also as the guitar ages the binding nibs can separate from the metal of the fret, causing a crack that the string can get hung up on. I've had this happen.

    I don't mind binding nibs and they look nice, but never worry about losing them during a refret.
    What you say is true. But, the same would apply to nibs . . "depending upon how much the nib ends are tapered"

    If a nib isn't tapered excessively . . but a fret end is . . then the useable area of the fret with the nib end would be greater. Would it not?
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  20. #19

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    To nib or not to nib: that is the question:
    Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The binding sorrows of outrageous cracking,
    Or to take files against this sea of troubles,
    And by opposing Patrick2, cut them off!


    Nibs..... <<Shudder>>


    This is (apparently) factory finished 2007 Les Paul. Not enough time on the bench for this one.

    Mulling over the nib thing here, I guess it's from a bygone age where strings were heavier and no one really applied bends in their solos. I'm thinking nibs were possibly implemented for the smoother feel for fast comping.

    Or to torture luthier/techs on re-fret jobs.

    Nicky boy mentions the Fender 7.25" radii, more for chord and melody but not bends, Fender went all 9.5" for bends.
    “When a wise man points at the moon the fool considers the finger.”

  21. #20

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    Nibs Suck!


  22. #21

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    I much prefer the feel and look of nibs to fret ends. Have never had a string get caught in one, either.

    Danny W.

  23. #22

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    [QUOTE=jazzbow;494980]




    Judging by the nibs on that I would say its the 2007 Fairo Model based on the Pyramids of Egypt.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbow View Post
    To nib or not to nib: that is the question:
    Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The binding sorrows of outrageous cracking,
    Or to take files against this sea of troubles,
    And by opposing Patrick2, cut them off!


    Nibs..... <<Shudder>>


    This is (apparently) factory finished 2007 Les Paul. Not enough time on the bench for this one.

    Mulling over the nib thing here, I guess it's from a bygone age where strings were heavier and no one really applied bends in their solos. I'm thinking nibs were possibly implemented for the smoother feel for fast comping.

    Or to torture luthier/techs on re-fret jobs.

    Nicky boy mentions the Fender 7.25" radii, more for chord and melody but not bends, Fender went all 9.5" for bends.
    Are you sure this Les Paul is a Gibson? I've never seen trapezoids with the corners rounded like that on a Gibson. Also, the binding material looks a bit . . weird.?.?

    By the way, I'm not opposed to removing the nibs on a refret. I'm opposed to have a new guitar built without binding and nibs.

    Here's what a Gibson Les Paul's trapezoids are supposed to look like. This is my 2002 R9. The nib ends are perfectly shaped and finished.









    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  25. #24

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    [QUOTE=Patrick2;495031]Are you sure this Les Paul is a Gibson? I've never seen trapezoids with the corners rounded like that on a Gibson. Also, the binding material looks a bit . . weird.?.?

    By the way, I'm not opposed to removing the nibs on a refret. I'm opposed to have a new guitar built without binding and nibs.

    Here's what a Gibson Les Paul's trapezoids are supposed to look like. This is my 2002 R9. The nib ends are perfectly shaped and finished.

    QUOTE]

    Gibson.com: Les Paul Less+ 2015

    Not to jump on my wagon again but you should see the bottom end Les Pauls that have been coming out in the last 15 years. Its not been pretty.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    Are you sure this Les Paul is a Gibson? I've never seen trapezoids with the corners rounded like that on a Gibson. Also, the binding material looks a bit . . weird.?.?
    Just checked the source, oh dear, the gear page. I only saw nibs.

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10933-jpg
    I have this tho'. A 1980 ES335 that was bought new and left in its case under the bed.

    Of interest is the factory fret dress, nice shaping.

    Soz for the previous ambiguous nib snafu!
    “When a wise man points at the moon the fool considers the finger.”

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbow View Post
    Just checked the source, oh dear, the gear page. I only saw nibs.

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10933-jpg
    I have this tho'. A 1980 ES335 that was bought new and left in its case under the bed.

    Of interest is the factory fret dress, nice shaping.

    Soz for the previous ambiguous nib snafu!
    While it's difficult (impossible?) to be certain of any totally accurate assessments based upon a photo showing only 4 frets, I think you're far to much of a knowledgeable *guitarfixeruperoligst* to believe that there wasn't some serious post manufacture fret filing done on this guitar. The center of the frets, as I'm seeing them, seem to be far more shallow . . as in filed down quite a bit more than they are at the edge radius of the board. If that guitar was purchased new, then stored in a case under a bed, then the owner needs to look under his bed and get those little people with the fret files the hell outta there.

    The nib shaping is indeed well done. But, the frets seem in despertate need of a crowning. Some of those 4 actually seem to be flat. I'm also troubled by the file marks left behind on the rosewood board and the edges of the binding. That sucks! Also, the pick guard looks like it's from a much older guitar than a 1980 . . and check out the oxidation on the screw. Most of the early 1980s 335s were blonds . . with the Shaw pups. They were wonderful guitars, most having impeccable attention to detail in fit and finish . . . . and are still selling at a bargain price for what they actually are. But, check out the top, where the PG is screwed in. I see no blond wood. It appears to be all binding. Is that right for that era? One other observation . . that sure does look like a BRW fingerboard . . doesn't it? Was Gibson using BRW boards in the '80s?

    I wish I could see a full shot of that guitar.
    Last edited by Patrick2; 01-21-2015 at 02:07 PM.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbow View Post
    To nib or not to nib: that is the question:
    Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The binding sorrows of outrageous cracking,
    Or to take files against this sea of troubles,
    And by opposing Patrick2, cut them off!


    Nibs..... <<Shudder>>


    This is (apparently) factory finished 2007 Les Paul. Not enough time on the bench for this one.

    Mulling over the nib thing here, I guess it's from a bygone age where strings were heavier and no one really applied bends in their solos. I'm thinking nibs were possibly implemented for the smoother feel for fast comping.

    Or to torture luthier/techs on re-fret jobs.

    Nicky boy mentions the Fender 7.25" radii, more for chord and melody but not bends, Fender went all 9.5" for bends.
    Good point regarding strings being heavier and not being used for fretboard pyrotechnics..hadn't thought of that.

  29. #28

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    I play heavy gauge and don't bend much, I must be from the bygone age
    ...every note has an origin and a destination...
    - Tal Farlow

  30. #29

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    I think a good instrument maker or restorer should keep the nibs if they were there in the first place. It shows skill, pride and attention to detail. I have an old Hofner that had fret ends like razor blades. That would never be a problem with nibs. I also know at least one player that prefers the feel with nibs. They look nice too in my opinion.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    Was Gibson using BRW boards in the '80s?

    I wish I could see a full shot of that guitar.
    Your wish is my command!

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10923-jpg
    This guitar is dated as 1980 as my good friend Bill bought it new.
    Check out the patina on the machineheads

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10930-jpg
    More nibs. Bill is a Baroque piano restorer (no, really, he is one of a very few in the whole of Europe).

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10934-jpg
    Blonde, you were right. Bill plays classical guitar and wanted to learn to play jazz so he bought this.

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10922-jpg
    Oo! The patina money cannot buy! So he tried and gave up early eighties and put the guitar to bed as it were.

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10961-jpg
    It came to me for an electrical fault and set up. The acorn nut here had hardened grease on its thread.

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10962-jpg
    The adjustment screws look huge! Note the split on the p/u ring and that patina!

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10968-jpg
    The bridge was made in Germany!

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10983-jpg
    With new strings and more patina.

    Fret Nibs question-sdc10975-copy-jpg
    Here she is. Flawless. No scratches, no dings. Not even a fret dress, this is how it came. He doesn't do string bends, just chord melody and that's all. He did take off the case blanket and threw it away though, yikes!

    The electric fault was weird. I cleaned all the switches and pots, still no joy. He had took it to a shop tech previously and the diagnosis was broken pickups and faulty pots!

    As the guitar is pristine I thought the prognosis somewhat short sighted and no research was done.

    I fixed it tho'. And how!

    Well I surmised that there must have been some sort of patination of the coil wire as it is the thinnest. I hooked up a 9 volt circuit tester and by putting + to + and - to - and tapped on and off on the positive part of the circuit while thinking over why it wasn't working. The VU meter slowly climbed in value with each tap up to 8ohms!
    WTF I thought, did the same in the other p/u in the same manner and the same f#####g thing happened and everything worked! Wow!

    I think it was like pushing out an air blockage in a water pipe, that sort of thing.

    He's looking to sell it at the moment, any idea of its value P2?

    But with his fine woodworking skills and my tech skills we have customised a Peavey Strat for his incredibly large hands

    Fret Nibs question-img_0234-jpg
    2"

    Fret Nibs question-img_0235-jpg
    52mm

    Fret Nibs question-img_0229-640x478-jpg
    The original neck planed flat in the centre with wider maple wings glued on

    Fret Nibs question-img_0232-640x478-jpg
    Look at the beauty of his work. All with chistles

    Fret Nibs question-img_0231-640x478-jpg
    He even oversized the head and added veneer.

    Fret Nibs question-img_0408-640x478-jpg
    Me fret pressing

    Fret Nibs question-img_0415-478x640-jpg
    I thought I had finished pictures but this is as far as my record of this went. I'm seeing him isoon so I'll grab some more.

    I have christened it the Straat as it is wider than a normal Strat.
    Attached Images Attached Images Fret Nibs question-img_0419-jpg 
    “When a wise man points at the moon the fool considers the finger.”

  32. #31

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    Not sure that current flow in a wire is like fluid in a pipe, but I'm glad you fixed it. That strat neck is immense!

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by plasticpigeon View Post
    Not sure that current flow in a wire is like fluid in a pipe, but I'm glad you fixed it. That strat neck is immense!
    I can't explain why it worked the way it did. It did though and everyone is happy
    “When a wise man points at the moon the fool considers the finger.”

  34. #33

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    jazzbow . . given the one owner provenance, the Shaw pups and condition of that 335, I estimate the current market value at low to mid $3,000s. Which in my opinion is a great price on a 335 from that era.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    jazzbow . . given the one owner provenance, the Shaw pups and condition of that 335, I estimate the current market value at low to mid $3,000s. Which in my opinion is a great price on a 335 from that era.
    P2, thanks for your help.

    I put it in the same area too.

    Shaw p/u's? Enlighten me please.
    “When a wise man points at the moon the fool considers the finger.”

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzbow View Post
    P2, thanks for your help.

    I put it in the same area too.

    Shaw p/u's? Enlighten me please.
    OOPS!! Typo. His name is Tim, not Tom. There's a long story about Tim Shaw pups. (I love telling stories) But, gotta run now. I'll come back after dinner and give you the run down.
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  37. #36

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    OK . . . so, I'm back. Rather than to give info off the top of my memory . . I did a cut and paste of a good article on it. It is a widely held belief, that the Shaw designed pickups . . are the most accurate at capturing the highly sought after PAF "tone from God" that many relate to the original '57, 58 & '59 bursts . . and the '58, '59 and '60 ES335s: Enjoy the long read.

    "Tim Shaw who designed these pickups under Norlin restraints did a remarkable job IMO. They really are a neat sounding alternative to most humbuckers. the Magnet , as was explained to me was "Unoriented AlnicoV" I do not know what that means other than it isn't a regular AlnicoV. It seems that AlnicoV has higher gauss mesurments or something to that effect than any other type of pickup magnet, and Tim said that by deleteing a final step that puts a full charge or orientation on the magnet, the tone was closest to what he was after. It was a long time ago, but that is how I remember it. I really don't understand all the fine points of Magnetism so I could have some terms mixed up. Basicly it is a real cool sounding, Big Al approved magnet. This is what I put in my Antiquities.

    From Gibson on Shaw:

    "Whether it was rivalry between plants or increased market awareness, the Nashville plant jumped into the reissue action in 1980. By this time, one of the most glaring deficiencies of new Les Pauls (compared to the originals) was the humbucking pickup. In preparation for its first attempt at a reissue, Gibson assigned engineer Tim Shaw the job of designing a reissue of the original Patent-Applied-For humbucking pickup-within certain restrictions. "This was 1980 and Norlin was already feeling the pinch," Shaw said, referring to Gibson's long decline through the 1970s and early '80s. "We weren't allowed to do much retooling. We redid the bobbin because it was worn out. We got some old bobbins and put the square hole back in. We did it without the T-hole, which stood for Treble."

    To replicate the magnets, Shaw gathered up magnets from original PAFs and sent them to a lab to be analyzed. "Most were Alnico 2's," he said, "but some were 5's. In the process of making an Alnico 5, they stick a magnet in a huge coil for orientation, but an unoriented 5 sounds a lot like a 2. They started with Alnico 2 and then switched to Alnico 5."

    Shaw discovered that the original magnets were a little thicker than 1980 production magnets. "Magnetic strength is largely a function of the area of the polarized face; increasing the face size gives you more power," he explained. So he specified the thicker magnet for the new PAF.

    Wiring on the originals was #42 gauge, which Gibson still used. However, the original wire had an enamel coating and the current wire had a polyurethane coat, which also was of a different thickness or "buildup" than that of the original, which affected capacitance. Norlin refused to go the extra mile-or extra buck, as it were. Enamel-coated wire cost a dollar more per pound than poly-coated. Shaw could change the spec on the buildup without additional expense, so the thickness of the coating was the same as on the original wire, but he was forced to use the poly coat. The difference is easy to see: purple wire on the originals, orange on the reissues.

    Shaw later found a spec for the number of turns on a spec sheet for a 1957 ES-175. "It specified 5,000 turns because a P-90 had 10,000 turns and they cut it in half," Shaw said. In reality, however, originals had anywhere from 5,000 to 6,000 turns, depending on how tight the coil was wound. Shaw later met Seth Lover, who designed and patented Gibson's humbucker, at a NAMM show. Lover laughed when asked about a spec for windings, and he told Shaw, "We wound them until they were full."

    The spec for resistance was even less exact, Shaw said. The old ohmeter was graduated in increments of .5 (500 ohms). Anywhere between 3.5 and 4 on the meter (3,500 to 4,000 ohms) met the spec. Consequently, Shaw pointed out, there is no such thing as an exact reissue or replica of the 1959 PAF pickup. There can only be a replica of one original PAF, or an average PAF. As Gibson would find out in the early 1990s, the same could be said about the entire guitar.

    Shaw's PAF reissue debuted on Gibson's new Nashville-made Les Paul Heritage 80 in 1980. Compared to anything Gibson had previously made (which is to say, compared to nothing), it was an excellent reissue of a sunburst Les Paul Standard....."
    Patrick2 . . Heritage representative (now former)

  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    OK . . . so, I'm back. Rather than to give info off the top of my memory . . I did a cut and paste of a good article on it. It is a widely held belief, that the Shaw designed pickups . . are the most accurate at capturing the highly sought after PAF "tone from God" that many relate to the original '57, 58 & '59 bursts . . and the '58, '59 and '60 ES335s: Enjoy the long read.
    P2, thanks for the information. It's duly logged and noted in the old jazzbow brain box
    “When a wise man points at the moon the fool considers the finger.”