The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    For me, looking, touching, is all part of the joy of playing archtops.

    When I get excited by good art or beautiful craftsmanship, it gets my creative juices going, sort of like inspiration/muse I guess.

    As much as I love the playability of my AF-120 (Scarf neck) the guitar in general leaves me feeling cold and creatively less inspired. Not saying I couldn't make great music on a cheap or ugly guitar but you don't get that same collision of artist inspiration or emotion.
    Last edited by Archie; 10-18-2014 at 11:13 AM.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    For me, looking, touching, is all part of the joy of playing archtops.

    When I get excited by good art or beautiful craftsmanship, it gets my creative juices going, sort of like inspiration/muse I guess.

    As much as I love the playability of my AF-120 (Scarf neck) the guitar in general leaves me feeling cold and creatively less inspired. Not saying I couldn't make great music on a cheap or ugly guitar but you don't get that same collision of artist inspiration or emotion.
    And therein lies the heart of the paradox of value. So we end up with woods chosen for their rarity and beauty rather than their musical function; binding where it does no practical good; large and intricate inlays that obscure the fingerboard position and replace that same said rare and beautiful wood; and yes, one-piece necks. The paradox of value is so powerful that we actual choose to pay more (and be inspired more) by objects of lesser practical value because they are more difficult to build and/or acquire. (And I do not claim to be entirely immune. I replace 2 dollar knobs with hand machined inlayed wood knobs that are ten times the price and much more difficult to see).
    Last edited by Jim Soloway; 10-18-2014 at 11:43 AM.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    And therein lies the heart of the paradox of value. So we end up with woods chosen for their rarity and beauty rather than their musical function; binding where it does no practical good; large and intricate inlays that obscure the fingerboard position and replace that same said rare and beautiful wood; and yes, one-piece necks. The paradox of value is so powerful that we actual choose to pay more (and be inspired more) by objects of lesser practical value because they are more difficult to build and/or acquire.

    The term 'lesser practical value' doesn't take into account the idea that 'value' is whats perceived and unique to the owner/player. So in that regard, value to me, is something of art and if it had lesser artistic value for the sake of 'practical value' it would then have 'lesser practical value' because of it.

    Now theres a paradox
    Last edited by Archie; 10-18-2014 at 11:56 AM.

  5. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    The whole discussion leads to something I've long considered an interesting question: does perceived value in guitars have more to do with fashion rather than function? I certainly think so but it's a tough trend to buck. I remember in university economics studying a phenomenon known as the water vs diamonds paradox and I think that applies very well here
    People subjectively value (and objectively price) objects with all sorts of attributes beyond functionality, and a lot of this has to do with social context. Within a group of people interested in creating a taxonomy of guitars based on minute details of their history and construction details, and then trading and collecting based on these attributes, these attributes take on an importance they don't necessarily have in other contexts. But there are also people (imo, WAY more), who are responding to completely different signals of status and functionality, and valuing/pricing things very differently. So, I don't think there's single fashion trend in guitar value/pricing. There are many streams of this, and in some streams function has much more weight than in others.

  6. #30

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    The last missing bit to the Puzzle of scarf joint is: It allows one factory to build necks for many brand names by a simple exchange of the headstock shape.

    I often had some kind of deja vú feeling after playing different guitars/necks from China or Korea. Didn`t you?

  7. #31

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    The availability of high quality wood for musical instruments is diminishing- some classic woods are either prohibitively expensive, no longer available or heavily regulated because of over-harvesting. Luthiers compete with furniture makers, architectural wood uses, etc. Access to some woods is really, really tight now- ebony is one example, some of the mahoganys and rosewoods are others.

    Sustainable Ebony | Taylor Guitars

    Using that wood judiciously and conservatively seems to me to be a wise choice- using the scarf neck design there is a huge reduction in waste compared to a 2/3/4/x laminated neck. I think that combination wood and synthetic tops and backs- such as double tops with ultrathin wood veneers over Nomex or something similar will be the standard within a decade or two in archtop and flattop acoustic guitars. There's an interesting video documenting Andersen building a double top laminate, with a little commentary from Bill Frissell playing it.

    Steve Andersen's Double-Top Archtop | The Fretboard Journal: Keepsake magazine for guitar collectors

    Luthiers are going to have to become even more creative than they already are to continue to produce fine instruments in a world where the raw materials have been heavily exploited for centuries, in some cases, and will be harder to source and more expensive. As in agriculture, metals and energy, sustainability is becoming more and more important as the human race approaches 8 billion humans (which exceeds our ready natural resources but a whole lot, especially as a higher percentage develop energy-intensive lifestyles), perhaps 30-50% of species heading towards endangered status, etc.

    The Extinction Crisis

    One of my very favorite and best-sounding guitars uses a scarf joint mahogany neck, probably not for sustainability reasons per se but for headstock strength and less waste of wood- which is no doubt helpful to small luthiery shop.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by redwater
    The last missing bit to the Puzzle of scarf joint is: It allows one factory to build necks for many brand names by a simple exchange of the headstock shape.

    I often had some kind of deja vú feeling after playing different guitars/necks from China or Korea. Didn`t you?
    the headstock would still be cut and routed from a pattern, regardless of the neck construction method.

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by fritz jones
    the headstock would still be cut and routed from a pattern, regardless of the neck construction method.
    Yes, and then glued to the neck via scarf joint.

  10. #34

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    i dont think so. the scarf joint is done first, with a board, then the headstock and neck are shaped.
    it has to be done with a board with a jointed edge.

  11. #35

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    With the state our planet is in, it somehow seems unethical to produce a one piece neck knowing the volume of wastage involved. This is especially so when a 3 piece neck is more stable. There are numerous great players out there who play guitars that do not have one piece necks. The point is that a one piece neck does not add anything either structurally or acoustically to a guitar....if anything, it detracts. It all comes down to the 'snob' factor from the individual demanding it.

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzfab
    With the state our planet is in, it somehow seems unethical to produce a one piece neck knowing the volume of wastage involved.
    OK, but going by these standards, it would be even more unethical to own more than one guitar (or, perhaps more aptly, to buy more than one guitar new).

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by palindrome
    OK, but going by these standards, it would be even more unethical to own more than one guitar (or, perhaps more aptly, to buy more than one guitar new).
    A ridiculous statement. What about different tuning when playing live or different acoustic requirements when recording?

    Simply put, the point I was making was, if a product can be produced efficiently without any detriment to the quality of the product, other than vanity and ego, there is no reason to 'over engineer' the product.

    If you personally feel a one piece neck sounds better, then you have better ears than me! If you feel it helps you to perform better, then by all means curtail your choice by only opting for guitars with one piece necks.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazzfab
    A ridiculous statement. What about different tuning when playing live or different acoustic requirements when recording?
    Well, it seems to me that if you were really taking one for "Team Planet", you'd be willing to change your tunings on stage (most Hawaiian players do it all the time, but not for any ecological reason that I am aware of, the music just demands it; so many tunings) or not worry about "different acoustic requirements" when recording "We Are The World" type tunes in a studio. I think your statement might have been seen as a bit hyperbolic by some, certainly by me. You seem to be saying that it's wasteful and planet killing to build a one-piece neck, but it's perfectly OK to incur the wastage involved in building at least 3 guitars to meet your needs in the scenario outlined above; I find that interesting.

  15. #39

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    The purpose of the scarf joint is to save wood .

  16. #40

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    Besides the looks and tradition department, the presence of a scarf joint for me would add two more things to worry about, the long term stability of the neck, and the actual quality of the scarf joint. How would you feel about say a guitar with a broken and repaired neck? I don't have enough experience to have an opinion on its sound contribution, but having a choice I wouldn't bet for the scarf joint. Also since it is mainly used in cheap and middle priced guitars, it would be a sign of where the instrument belongs in terms of quality. I would rather trust the well known professionals in their opinion about it, and they all chose not to use it unless pressured by cost or wood sparsity (the exception being the classical world, but that's a completely different construction and tension thing).

    Of course times are always changing, and instrument manufacturers have to comply, whether we are taking scarf joints, synthetic woods, waste, considering competition, quantity vs quality, etc. But reality forced choices and quality choices don't always coincide..

    And it DOES also come down to price point. If you want to charge thousands of dollars for a guitar, wood has to sound good but look good also. Binding will be more elaborate, inlays fancier etc, it makes sense.

  17. #41

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    the classic broken Gibson headstock occurs in 1 piece necks often, because they are weaker in that area than necks with a scarf joint.

  18. #42

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    The scarf joint is needed if you have a 4/4 board of nice mahogany and you want to make a neck from it. To make a neck for an acoustic you will need to stack and join a few layers for the heel also. A well made neck with a scarf joint is likely to be stronger than a one piece neck.
    If you have a 4/4 board that is flatsawn, then a 3 piece laminate is a good choice. The three piece laminate is also likely to be stronger than its one piece counterpart.
    This is a good way to use stock that has already been cut down to 4/4. It depends on the species but some wood is hard to find in the wide widths needed for a one piece neck. I should mention it is faster to build a one piece neck.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    Besides the looks and tradition department, the presence of a scarf joint for me would add two more things to worry about, the long term stability of the neck, and the actual quality of the scarf joint. How would you feel about say a guitar with a broken and repaired neck? I don't have enough experience to have an opinion on its sound contribution, but having a choice I wouldn't bet for the scarf joint. Also since it is mainly used in cheap and middle priced guitars, it would be a sign of where the instrument belongs in terms of quality. I would rather trust the well known professionals in their opinion about it, and they all chose not to use it unless pressured by cost or wood sparsity (the exception being the classical world, but that's a completely different construction and tension thing).

    Of course times are always changing, and instrument manufacturers have to comply, whether we are taking scarf joints, synthetic woods, waste, considering competition, quantity vs quality, etc. But reality forced choices and quality choices don't always coincide..

    And it DOES also come down to price point. If you want to charge thousands of dollars for a guitar, wood has to sound good but look good also. Binding will be more elaborate, inlays fancier etc, it makes sense.
    Yes ..I get this and the 'Scarf Joint ' telegraphs this to everyone ....

    SURPRISINGLY - This IMO also applies to Bolt Neck Guitars including ALL who have 'string trees ' on the
    Headstock ..

    Because they would sound better/ perform better in most cases with more down pressure at the Nut with an ANGLED HEADSTOCK ..but this was also a cost cutting measure by Leo Fender and has carried through suprisingly to modern bolt on Guitars including non budget Models and even Boutiques.

    We can debate whether an angled headstock improves tone of course and we will have few models to compare because most Builders are copying Fender who is copying itself and others are copying that ...lol.

    But it IS was a way to save lumber and save labor .

    Less obvious to many because it's so common and Strats and Teles are low resonance Guitars anyway ...generally.

    But IF a Guitar sounds and plays how you want it to or expect it to...scarf joint and string trees etc are tolerable.

    Suposedly glue joints are stronger than the wood but I wonder about that Joint and I wonder about Luthiers using the same Glues from 50 years ago
    aiming to recreate rather than go beyond ...and if that joint will break easily ..

    I think you're analogy to a broken and repaired neck is a good one ...kind of bad for a scarf joint .

    But some of those Peerless sound and perform way above their price point .

    I might take a chance on one for sure...

  20. #44

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    Is anyone here willing or able to post images of a scarf joint that failed?

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackcat
    Is anyone here willing or able to post images of a scarf joint that failed?
    This is a good point ...I don't ever recall reading about one that failed....

    Broken Headstocks - usually from drops or guitars falling etc...those I have heard of or read about..and headstock repairs on guitars for sale ...

    But never heard of a failed scarf joint only scarf joints that fail to impress ...haha .

    I didn't even know about those being a common construction technique on Guitars until I read about Peerless - and Peerless are highly regarded at their price point , and often go way above...meaning Players who have more expensive guitars but still use their Peerless frequently .

    I think it's cool that most experienced Jazzers on here love their Vintage Gibson's etc. but are first to admit when some inexpensive model plays and sounds way above it's price class...

  22. #46

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    Don't forget almost all guitar necks are made from more than one piece of wood. If you count the fingerboard. In fact the best necks are often multi piece necks. When you laminate a neck it is like plywood in that it is more stable than a single piece of wood of equal size. The problem with many necks with scarf joints is that you can see the joint. It is possible to completely hide a scarf joint under the headplate and rear veneer on a neck that uses them.

  23. #47

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    @Matt Cushman...
    True the necks with longitudinal strips glued together
    lengthwise ( redundant to be clear ) especially on softer woods like Mahogany and on Basses are said to be stronger and stiffer and need fewer truss rod adjustments...

    I have asked ...but only know what Luthiers and end users with one piece and multi piece necks have said
    multi piece longitudinal joint multi piece necks are more stable .

  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robertkoa
    This is a good point ...I don't ever recall reading about one that failed....

    Broken Headstocks - usually from drops or guitars falling etc...those I have heard of or read about..and headstock repairs on guitars for sale ...

    But never heard of a failed scarf joint only scarf joints that fail to impress ...haha .

    I didn't even know about those being a common construction technique on Guitars until I read about Peerless - and Peerless are highly regarded at their price point , and often go way above...meaning Players who have more expensive guitars but still use their Peerless frequently .

    I think it's cool that most experienced Jazzers on here love their Vintage Gibson's etc. but are first to admit when some inexpensive model plays and sounds way above it's price class...
    Thank you Robert. I raised the point because in the several years that I handled Peerless across France, this never came up and has not come up since. Mostly in the mind? On the other hand, one-piece necks that are from poorly seasoned stock or not quarter sawn are frequently seen to be troublesome.