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  1. #1
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    Finger style tailpiece questions

    First, what are opinions on these in general? Liked? Not liked? Worth the money? What exactly do they do? What is the benefit? What is the downside? etc. Any comments wold be appreciated.

    Second: other than the price and the photograph, are these two tail pieces actually different or are these the same item shot in a different position?

    New Guitar Finger Style Tailpiece Nickel FGTP N | eBay

    Archtop Jazz Guitar 6 Leg Adjustable Tailpiece Nickel L5 Citation Heritage | eBay
    My CD "Bare Handed" is available as a download at Bandcamp.com
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  3. #2
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    Jim

    I don't know what the value per se of the finger tailpieces is. Originally, they were made by Oettinger for banjos. The earliest one I have ever seen is a three-finger Oettinger on a 1929 Gibson L-5. All I can say is that the guitar with that tailpiece is the finest archtop I have ever played. I have no idea if the tailpiece contributes anything to the sound because I never heard that guitar with its original tailpiece. The original owner put the Oettinger on it back in the 30s, I would suspect.

  4. #3
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    IIRC the idea was to allow fine tuning of string tension feel by changing the break angle of each string over the bridge saddle(s). I've never tried one so I can't say if it works. I have heard that they tend to rattle, but that could vary by manufacturer or even particular specimens.

  5. #4
    I had one on a Gibson HR Fusion III.

    I did not play with it but

    1. It looks damn good

    2. The guitar played really nicely.

    If the its main function works (to alter individual string tension) then that is a big plus.

    I didn't notice any rattle with mine.

  6. #5
    Hi Jim,

    In my opinion/experience/casual-test they do absolutely nothing on a guitar.

    Nothing.

    They do have some sound effect on a banjo, but not regarding "tension" in any way whatsoever.

    Never encountered one rattling. They look great. I had one on a guitar I owned myself - a Howard Roberts, and it looked fine, no rattle, and did absolutely nothing. Got rid of the Howard - the usual crazy-sticky lacquer.

  7. #6
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    I have one on my Gibson Super V which I've had for over thirty years now. It has never rattled for me. A couple of the tuner knobs bent over the years but that was because I was carrying it around New York in a cheap soft case. A few years ago I bought a replacement, I think through StewMac, and had it professionally fitted. The old one had lost a lot of the gold finish and was not looking the best.
    The two links you showed me look similar but the brace that screws into the guitar is different. The second link is the same as the one my guitar came with except mine is a gold finish.
    I do like mine, I think they're cool. I never really played much with the tension control knobs. I set them where I liked them and left it. They do definitely alter the tension of the string on the neck though.

  8. #7
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    Had one on my Lee Rit, and have them on my two LeGrands.

    they do look good but need to wiped down like any gold plated guitar gizmo.

    i have noticed that the "fine tuning" screw really does help dial in a string that is just the slightest bit off, when using my fancy ass Korg tuner.

    bottom line, it's all good.

  9. #8
    The Ibanez GB 20 which I used to own had a split tailpiece for independent adjustment (bass and treble sides) of the downward pressure of the strings against the top through the bridge. It seems to have an effect on string response or what you might call speed of attack. It's difficult to describe the effect precisely; one way to think of it might be to say it has some effect in adjusting the degree of "thunk" (a technical term ) or lack thereof. Lowering the string angle yields a softer response, raising it sharpens the attack.

    My B120 allows for performing the same height adjustment of its brass tailpiece but only for all six strings together, i.e., the tailpiece is solid rather than split or fingered. It is no doubt a subtle effect but one which I appreciate having.

    Chuck

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    Chuck,

    B120 is a great guitar. I think Emily Remler sounded fantastic on hers.

  11. #10
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    For anyone who hasn't actually looked at the eBay listings, these are not gold. they're chrome or nickel depending on which listing you look at. That was a big part of what piqued my interest. I don't know that I've ever actually seen one in nickel or chrome.
    My CD "Bare Handed" is available as a download at Bandcamp.com
    http://jimsoloway.bandcamp.com/album/bare-handed

  12. #11
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    Here's my take on the finger tail pieces . . and a little Heritage back ground on their usage of them;

    First off . . I really do not like the look of them on my Heritage arch tops. Too art deco-y for my taste. Out of character with the aesthetic vintage vibe that drew me in decades ago . . to being an arch top lover. I and many others agree with PTChris and Hammetone, as to the tension adjustment of the fingers having no effect. However, I'd bet dollars to donuts that just as many swear it does.

    The negative aspect of them (other than my personal taste) is that during string changes, if you're not very careful the fingers will drop (heavily) onto the top when not under string tension. Also the adjustment thumb wheel/screws stick way up high and make the appearance even more unsightly and can cause havoc if the guitar is put into an over size case.

    The positive aspect of them, as stated previously, is that they'll almost never rattle and the ball end of the string stays very secure, when placed correctly in it's holder. Also, they'll almost neve fail.

    The Schaller tail piece that Heirtage used early on, when they had the ebony insert in them and then later, the same bale type tail piece with the Big H insert, had quite a few problems very early on. It was a two piece hinged tail piece. Over time, the hinge would start to distort under string tension and eventually open up. I've heard horror stories of these things just letting go with a very loud cracking POP!! Then, the top of the guitar would be scarred up quite a bit. Schaller fixed that with a more durable metal alloy that wouldn't fatigue. Problem solved! But, Heritage wanted a tail piece unique to the Heritage brand . . thus the big-ass H on the Schaller bale. The problem with that was, there was very often a sympathetic vibration coming from the H. I would have Ronaldo take all of my H tail pieces off, flip them over and apply super glue on every area where the H came even close to being in contact with the bale. Problem solved! It's a real pain in the nuts getting the ball end of the strings to seat properly in this tail piece. If it's not seated properly, it'll pop out and ding the top.

    At some point, Heritage and Schaller fell out of grace with each other. Heritage needed to get a tail piece. The finger TP was available from a supplier, Stew Mac or someone else, not sure who. That's the ONLY reason that TP was used in place of the Schaller. Then . . as luck would have it, they couldn't get one type of finger TP . . and switched to another. I have an 18" with a small finger TP . . and a 17" with a large one. I told Steve Hayes I was going to bring the guitars to him and have him switch them, so the would appear more proportunate to the larger and smaller guitars. He asked me if I liked the way the guitars played and the way the strings felt under my fingers. I assured him that I did, especially the 17" vintage wine burst. He said .. "then don't switch them out. You'll definitely notice a difference from what you're used to in feel, due to the difference in the distance from the bridge saddle to the tail piece fingers". Steve Hayes is one of the best techs I've ever come across. Here's a quick photo I just took of the two guitars with the different size finger tail pieces;

    Also, this above summation of the current tail pieces that Heritage uses (finger style) is the reason I went to ABM-Mueller in Germany and paid close to $300 for the tail piece on my newest Heritage Super Golden Eagle. Here are a couple of photos of the ABM TP also;






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  14. #13
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    I have a Howard Roberts Fusion with one, and on a semi-hollow it does not rattle, fine adjustments in tuning work without nut creak noise or tuner jumping.

    I find myself tuning with it rather than the machines. As far as sound goes, the HRF is sort of a weird semi hollow and is more acoustically alive than say a 335, but it's more likely from the body construction rather than the TP.

    Someday I think I'd like to put one on my 175 which has less than wonderful tuners on it.
    Regards,

    Gary

  16. #15
    Here are several views of one on a Heritage Johnny Smith. I never futzed with the angle, but it's very quiet and the guitar has a very nice soft feel. How much of that is the tail I don't know. As far as the fingers hitting the top during string changes, um, doesn't anyone else lay a cloth under the tail when doing so?

    Finger style tailpiece questions-12butt-jpg
    Finger style tailpiece questions-2froncase-jpg
    Finger style tailpiece questions-4fronrite-jpg
    Finger style tailpiece questions-3fronleft-jpg
    Finger style tailpiece questions-1fronfull-jpg

  17. #16
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    No offense intended to anyone who ownes a blong Heritage JS . . . but to my eyes, this shaded JS is just so much prittier than a blond model with the black hardware. A few years back, I bought a NOS blond. Kept it for a few weeks and sold it to The Doctor from K'zoo. Just couldn't get around the black hardware. If it was this guitar that I bought, I'd still own it. This is gorgeous! What the hell took you so long to post pix of it?

    Woody . . I'm pretty sure most everyone puts a cloth under the tail piece (maybe?) when changing strings. But, the caveat was for those who might not. Personally, it's never a problem for me. I never change my own strings. That's what Ronaldo is for. :-) (Thank God for Ronaldo!!)

    But, what about string breakage. Very rarely (if ever ) happens, I know that. But, the finger will just drop down onto the top.

    What does the label in the F hole call that shading? Is that Heritage's ALSB? Looks a bit darker than ALSB and a bit lighter than OSB.

  18. #17
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    Here is my 1980 Gibson Super V. Notice that tailpiece is backward to the way it is today. I'm not sure when they switched over.


  19. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe View Post
    Here is my 1980 Gibson Super V. Notice that tailpiece is backward to the way it is today. I'm not sure when they switched over.

    There were a couple that left Heritage like that. No one there can tell me why.?.?.?

  20. #19
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    When gibson first started using this tailpiece they were like this. At some point in the 80's someone decided to swap it over but I have no idea why. Is it aesthetically better or is there some technical reason? My guitar has never had a problem with intonation so it's a mystery to me.

  21. #20
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    I always replace strings one at a time unless I'm doing work on the guitar that necessitates removal of all the strings, in which case I tape a piece of sponge to the tailpiece or remove it altogether.

  22. #21
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    Stunning JS. Also, I like every Super-V I have ever played. Send them to me!

  23. #22
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    I have a Gibson HRF with the 6 finger tailpiece and, like Patrick, I have never liked the look of it, (thanks Patrick, I thought I was the only person in the world who had that opinion...we are definetely in the minority!). I have never had mine rattle and I was told by a luthier that if you break a string mid-song there is less chance of the other strings going out of tune than on a standard tailpiece due to the individual fingers. I don't know if that is true, never experienced that situation.

    You certainly can change the tension a little, but I think you would need some test equipment, or an extremely good ear to tell whether the sustain is altered.

    For me, it is just the look of it,... art deco-y as Patrick describes. HOWEVER, having seen the black tail piece on Woody Sound's JS I may change my mind! That looks fabulous against that finish (very similar to my HRF). Any one know who sells the black finger tailpieces??

  24. #23
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    setemupjoe, That Super V is gorgeous.

  25. #24
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    After reading Patrick's comments I went looking at a bunch of photos and it's amazing how they just seem to get flipped in both directions. That seems to negate any logic for having them staggered. Weird.
    My CD "Bare Handed" is available as a download at Bandcamp.com
    http://jimsoloway.bandcamp.com/album/bare-handed

  26. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway View Post
    After reading Patrick's comments I went looking at a bunch of photos and it's amazing how they just seem to get flipped in both directions. That seems to negate any logic for having them staggered. Weird.
    Totally. When I replaced mine I had the luthier swap it around to match the original because I didn't want to mess with how the neck felt to me. But it does seem that at some point someone decided it should be the opposite way around. Whenever I see a guitar with the long fingers on the bass side like my Super V I always assume it's one of the original tailpieces.

  27. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe View Post
    Totally. When I replaced mine I had the luthier swap it around to match the original because I didn't want to mess with how the neck felt to me. But it does seem that at some point someone decided it should be the opposite way around. Whenever I see a guitar with the long fingers on the bass side like my Super V I always assume it's one of the original tailpieces.
    If you had them swapped, I assume that means the fingers are removable. Is that correct? If so, I wonder if they ship to the builder with the fingers installed and somewhere along the line someone just started installing them in revere sequence? And if that's the case I wonder if you could set them up in a V configuration to match the string length behind the nut? (Just thinking strange thoughts out loud, in an e-reality sort of way)
    My CD "Bare Handed" is available as a download at Bandcamp.com
    http://jimsoloway.bandcamp.com/album/bare-handed

  28. #27
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    Yes. You can unassemble the tailpiece and pull all the fingers off and arrange them in any order you like.

  29. #28
    I've owned a bunch of guitars with this type of tailpiece:











    This doesn't include several that I own now. I've also owned archtops with a variety of other tailpieces. I have to admit that I don't pay much attention to it--I've had great guitars with tailpieces of all types and the guitars I've had with fingers were fine too. I bought the two Johnny Smiths pictured above from Johnny himself, who was a big advocate of that tailpiece and influential in getting it on his model. He claimed it offered better string separation and clarity than a solid tailpiece. The guitars I have now with it certainly do achieve that, but they are also acoustically carved and braced and have floaters, so it's hard for me to say what the tailpiece contributes to the result. The most I pay attention to the tailpiece is when changing strings; the way I look at it, it's just part of the overall design and whatever the maker used is fine with me.

    Some other points--although Gibson refers to this as a "fine-tune" tailpiece, it's actually intended to adjust the down pressure. I have set mine to what seems like a balanced setting and use the tuning pegs for tuning. As for the direction of the staggering of the fingers, Gibson has suggested trying it either way and using it as you choose, just as Epi suggested with their staggered tailpiece. I have always just left mine the way they came from the factory. Also, none of mine has ever rattled.

    Danny W.

  30. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway View Post
    And if that's the case I wonder if you could set them up in a V configuration to match the string length behind the nut? (Just thinking strange thoughts out loud, in an e-reality sort of way)
    Now THAT'S a clever idea!

  31. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2 View Post
    No offense intended to anyone who ownes a blong Heritage JS . . . but to my eyes, this shaded JS is just so much prittier than a blond model with the black hardware. A few years back, I bought a NOS blond. Kept it for a few weeks and sold it to The Doctor from K'zoo. Just couldn't get around the black hardware. If it was this guitar that I bought, I'd still own it. This is gorgeous! What the hell took you so long to post pix of it?

    What does the label in the F hole call that shading? Is that Heritage's ALSB? Looks a bit darker than ALSB and a bit lighter than OSB.
    Well unfortunately the guitar is no longer mine - I've grown (shrunk?) uncomfortable with 17" guitars. But IIRC, it IS OSB.

  32. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Woody Sound View Post
    Well unfortunately the guitar is no longer mine - I've grown (shrunk?) uncomfortable with 17" guitars. But IIRC, it IS OSB.
    ps - I didn't want to steer the tp thread off-course, but here is a pic of the back:

    Finger style tailpiece questions-6backcase-jpg

  33. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe View Post
    Here is my 1980 Gibson Super V. Notice that tailpiece is backward to the way it is today. I'm not sure when they switched over.


    It's very easy to swap the fingers on the TP. Take them out and put them back in to reverse the slope if you'd like.
    MG

  34. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marty Grass View Post
    It's very easy to swap the fingers on the TP. Take them out and put them back in to reverse the slope if you'd like.
    I actually bought a brand new finger tailpiece about five years ago to replace the original. Over the years some of the knobs had broken off and the gold plating was mostly gone. My luthier swapped the fingers around so it would match my old one which was fine with me. I'd prefer to keep it the way it is. I'm just curious about the switchover that occurred with the finger tailpieces and the reasons behind it.

  35. #34
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    I wonder if ABM Mueller, the German manufacturer, sells individual "tines" or "prongs". I'd love to have them all the same length or in the formation of an arrow/inverted V.

  36. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky View Post
    I wonder if ABM Mueller, the German manufacturer, sells individual "tines" or "prongs". I'd love to have them all the same length or in the formation of an arrow/inverted V.
    How cool would that look on the Super V?

  37. #36
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    I've long held the opinion that the string length behind the bridge should inversely mirror the string length behind the nut. That is, the D and G strings, which are longest behind the nut, should be shortest behind the bridge. Bothe E strings, shortest behind the nut, should be longest behind the bridge. A and B will fall between. Ideally the total untuned length for each string would be equal on all strings. This would result in an inverted vee or step-pryamid profile (my preference). I'm picturing a D'Angelico-type deco lattice theme, visually. Silver plated. Inlaid with jade. Or emeralds.

    Big ones.

    Whatcha Think?
    Best regards, k

  38. #37
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    It should look somewhat like this:

    Finger style tailpiece questions-middle-finger-131-jpg

  39. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74 View Post
    I've long held the opinion that the string length behind the bridge should inversely mirror the string length behind the nut. That is, the D and G strings, which are longest behind the nut, should be shortest behind the bridge. Bothe E strings, shortest behind the nut, should be longest behind the bridge. A and B will fall between. Ideally the total untuned length for each string would be equal on all strings. This would result in an inverted vee or step-pryamid profile (my preference). I'm picturing a D'Angelico-type deco lattice theme, visually. Silver plated. Inlaid with jade. Or emeralds.

    Big ones.

    Whatcha Think?
    Sounds like a Maccaferri tailpiece which achieves that

  40. #39
    A maccaferri tailpiece achieves that layout and, being very light, helps with the sound too. Never seen one fitted to a carved top though.

  41. #40
    A maccaferri tailpiece achieves that layout and, being very light, helps with the sound too. Never seen one fitted to a carved top though.

  42. #41

    Reversed tailpieces

    I think it's poosible that the Heritage finger tailpieces above that came with the longer fingers on the bass side may have been intended for a left handed guitar. Someone at Heritage may have simply screwed up, as I know they make lefties. I'm a left handed player, and have noticed that in all archtop guitars that have the "harp" shaped tailpieces(i.e. old Gretsch Synchromatics and old Guild archtops) they are designed to allow for greater string length on the bass side. I've also noticed the same thing regarding Epiphone Frequensator tailpieces, although those allow for the two arms to be removed and reversed. I picked up a Frequensator and did just that on a 1950's German archtop. Frankly, I didn't notice much, if any, difference into string tension or tone.

  43. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohannU View Post
    I think it's poosible that the Heritage finger tailpieces above that came with the longer fingers on the bass side may have been intended for a left handed guitar. Someone at Heritage may have simply screwed up, as I know they make lefties. I'm a left handed player, and have noticed that in all archtop guitars that have the "harp" shaped tailpieces(i.e. old Gretsch Synchromatics and old Guild archtops) they are designed to allow for greater string length on the bass side. I've also noticed the same thing regarding Epiphone Frequensator tailpieces, although those allow for the two arms to be removed and reversed. I picked up a Frequensator and did just that on a 1950's German archtop. Frankly, I didn't notice much, if any, difference into string tension or tone.

    By lengthening the string afterlength the pitch of the afterlength lowers, and vice versa. The tension and the bridge downforce remain always the same.

    The pitch (f) of a string or string's afterlength is dependant upon the string's length (L) from the nut to the bridge, the tension of the string (T) and the string's mass per unit length (m) with the "Mersenne equation"
    f = (1/2L)(T/m)^0.5


    In the violin world some try to make sure that the corresponding string afterlength (for each string) is tuned exactly two octaves and a fifth higher:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-GPhk2oPaM


    I hardly believe that such fine tunings touch the practical archtop guitarist, but see it differently on high-quality acoustic instruments in terms of the roughly ideal afterlength found empirically over the centuries (in relation to the scale or vibrating string length) - which could be meaningful for the archtop guitar maker.

  44. #43
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    Geometrically the downforce over the bridge would change with the break angle. As you lower the finger and make the angle more acute, the downforce will increase and vice versa. Think of the extreme example- a string passing over the bridge with a 0 degree break angle versus one with a 90 degree break angle; the former will have virtually no downforce and the latter will have a great deal of downforce. Most archtops have a break angle of what, 10-15 degrees? I don't know what the range of break angle provided by the finger tailpiece might be- if the difference is only 1-2 degrees then the effect it could have would be small; if it's 10+ degrees then the difference might be more appreciable. It would seem reasonable to postulate that this could change the sound somewhat by increasing or decreasing the loading on the top, perhaps becoming more "thunky" as the break angle increases and more "pianistic" as the break angle decreases.

    Adjusting the break angle will put the string out of tune when you make the adjustment because it will change the length of string between the bridge point and the anchor point, pulling or releasing the speaking length of the string, although that might only be a millimeter or two unless the excursion of the finger is very large (from all the way up to all the way down, for example). However, tension on the speaking length of the re-tuned string with be the same at pitch no matter how high or low the anchor point is. As a result the resistance of the string to deflection (fretting or bending) would stay the same, so the feel of the string shold stay the same- and yet there are those who say they can feel the difference. One possible mechanism is that with the lower break angle the string can slip a very small amount back and forth over the bridge point, whereas with a more acute break angle it can't; but if that was the case, the string would be immediately out of tune.

    I can't say that this has been obvious to me when playing around with the tailpiece on my GB10. Changes in the tonal quality of the string haven't been very obvious to me, either. But my fingers and ears aren't very good; someone else may find the differences obvious.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  45. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway View Post
    If you had them swapped, I assume that means the fingers are removable. Is that correct? If so, I wonder if they ship to the builder with the fingers installed and somewhere along the line someone just started installing them in revere sequence? And if that's the case I wonder if you could set them up in a V configuration to match the string length behind the nut? (Just thinking strange thoughts out loud, in an e-reality sort of way)
    <br>

    This was the post that encouraged me to try this on my Sonntag but I couldn't find it until today so here it is....
    Attached Images Attached Images Finger style tailpiece questions-20190106_201824-jpg 

  46. #45

    Guitar Heritage 575 with guitar input at the bottom, conversion for fingertail

    Had anybody made the conversion needed to install a finger tail, to a thin line heritage 575, that has the input at the center bottom of the guitar?

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