The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi, hope u all had a greate summer so far.

    Got My -69 335 stolen a few years back. Ive looked long and hard to find a good vintage 335 to replaced it but its been hard to find one that i liked (without spending a fortune)
    I decided to replaced it with a New 335 - 63 block that is greate. I have However always prefered the trapez tale piece. Are there any issues with installing one ? Messurements, distances etc or is it more or les just to line it up , drill holes and fasten it?

    btw, i have no concerns regarding altering the guitar at all...

    Thanks guys

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hjalmiz
    Hi, hope u all had a greate summer so far.

    Got My -69 335 stolen a few years back. Ive looked long and hard to find a good vintage 335 to replaced it but its been hard to find one that i liked (without spending a fortune)
    I decided to replaced it with a New 335 - 63 block that is greate. I have However always prefered the trapez tale piece. Are there any issues with installing one ? Messurements, distances etc or is it more or les just to line it up , drill holes and fasten it?

    btw, i have no concerns regarding altering the guitar at all...

    Thanks guys
    Hmmmm . . . that's really interesting. Most people usually did exactly the opposite . . converting the trapeze to a stop. They do so partially (mainly?) because they sensed fret slap from the trapeze. So, intead og getting a proper set up with the trapeze, they swapped it out for a stop. I did the same thing on a 1969 ES 335 TDC that I once had. I regretted do it. Some also claimed a significant increase on sustain, decrease in decay with the stop. I've had quite a few 335s with both variation. I genuflect to the better and more sensitive hearing of those people . . because I couldn't quite relate to what they though they were hearing.

    You're gonna be left with two big ol' holes where the stop TP stud was. If you're lucky, you might be able to find a vintage "Custom Made" plaque that Gibson used when they put Bigbsby tail pieces on those guitars at the factory. The holes for the stop were drilled out before they decided to do thew Bigsby . . and the had to cover them up with something.

    But, IMO, if you have to ask how to put a trapeze tailpiece on a semi hollow . . it might be best for you to take it to a tech who's done it before and undertands all of the precautions and dos and don'ts. "Support Your Local Tech".

  4. #3

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    On a floating bridge archtop it is rather important to get the tailpiece lined up with the neck (which is not necessarily down the center of the body).

    But on a 335 the exact location of the trap is not all that critical. Even of the strings all "fork-left toward Wichita" a bit at the bridge, you would be hard pressed to notice a difference. The bridge will not be pulled to the side as can happen with a floater.

    Still, I think Patrick is right (!). You will end up with a fine installation if you have a competent tech/luthier do it.

    The stop tail studs screw into metal inserts. Depending on the color of your 335, a blackened brass set of caps over the studs look fine. These are very easy to make, so any luthier who had to make 100's (hah, maybe more than hundreds) of brass nuts in the day will have no problem making two brass plugs.

    I have also done it by matching the plugs to the FB, rosewood in the case I am thinking of. These are low profile domes that just cover the stud inserts. Easy to install and later remove should one want to devolve to the stop tail.

    Chris

  5. #4
    Hey
    tanx, im taking it to a tech. I figure it Will be a Quick operation for him then.

    I dont care about the holes from the bridge that much so in not in a hurry to cover them up. But thanks for the sudgestions. I Will look in to that.

    Yes , there might be a diffrence in sustain. But i think the trapeze add a diffrent set of overtones to the guitar. I also like the feel of a longer string.
    I played one for 10 years and i miss it.

    Regards /H

  6. #5

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    I did that with a Les Paul once, because I like the look, but also because it changes the break angle over the bridge and increases the tension of the strings at the same time, since the length of the string under tension is longer with a trapeze. That sounds like a contradiction, and it really is, in a way. I ended up top-wrapping Les Pauls to achieve the shallow break angle, and I do the same with my 335. As an archtop-mostly player, it took me a little while to warm up to the stop tailpiece of my 335, but with the strings top-wrapped, I got used to the feel and also the appearance.

    It's easy to install a trapeze on a fixed bridge guitar, but honestly, I'd play the instrument for a while as is before you doctor it. I'm attracted to the look of a trapeze, but I have to admit, the stop tailpiece feels and sounds really good. I like the change from the Super 400 when I use the 335, and part of that is the feel of the tailpiece I think. You certainly can go back and forth easily enough, though you'll leave two or three little holes in the butt of the guitar if you restore it to re-sell.

  7. #6

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    Get a newer Trini Lopez model Memphis Gibson, it's already done!

  8. #7

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    >>> because it changes the break angle over the bridge and increases the tension of the strings at the same time, since the length of the string under tension is longer with a trapeze.

    This is not consistent with any principle or measured result whatsoever.

    This is not because some humans feel they have added capacity for sensing the physical world, but because it is simply not the actual case.

    It is actually the complete opposite of what can happen (both in absurdly simple principle and measured result) if the added string behind the bridge is long enough AND the friction over the bridge is low enough.

    >>> That sounds like a contradiction, and it really is, in a way.

    It is not a contradiction, it is simply a mistaken view of the actual situation. There is no vague mysterious "in a way" about it.

    No personal offense intended at all, it is simply an objectively incorrect description of the mind-numbingly simple mechanics of the guitar.

    I suppose lore-riddled web entertainment (apparently) is important. But when you have to actually produce results, it works much better when the actual situation carries more weight. This is the background to my preference. I definitely understand that others prefer a more impressionistic view of the mechanics.

    Chris

  9. #8

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    Well, when you take a string and increase the tension until it achieves a certain pitch, the shorter the string, the less tension it will require to meet that pitch. That's why higher pitched instruments (violins, mandolins, ukuleles) have shorter scales.

    Do you agree with that much?

    So, if a string is shorter, as in a stop tailpiece, it will not have to be under as much tension to achieve a certain pitch as a longer string, as in one that runs all the way to a trapeze tailpiece.The bridge is the end of the vibrating node, but not the end of the string under tension. Do you agree with that?

    So, installing a trapeze will increase the tension the string must be under to achieve the pitch. The note is determined by the placement of the bridge but the tension is impacted by the length of the string..

  10. #9

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    No it is only the length between the nut and bridge that counts for tension for note. Otherwise frets wouldn't work!


    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFour00
    Well, when you take a string and increase the tension until it achieves a certain pitch, the shorter the string, the less tension it will require to meet that pitch. That's why higher pitched instruments (violins, mandolins, ukuleles) have shorter scales.

    Do you agree with that much?

    So, if a string is shorter, as in a stop tailpiece, it will not have to be under as much tension to achieve a certain pitch as a longer string, as in one that runs all the way to a trapeze tailpiece.The bridge is the end of the vibrating node, but not the end of the string under tension. Do you agree with that?

    So, installing a trapeze will increase the tension the string must be under to achieve the pitch. The note is determined by the placement of the bridge but the tension is impacted by the length of the string..

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimbler
    No it is only the length between the nut and bridge that counts for tension for note. Otherwise frets wouldn't work!
    Tension and length of the vibrating node are two different things. Are you suggesting that a fretted note has more tension than an unfretted note? The fretted note isn't higher pitched because it's under more tension, it's higher pitched because it's shorter ... it's under the same tension. You're proving my point. Same tension, shorter scale, equals higher pitch.

    A bridge is like a fret. It affects the length of the vibrating node, but not the tension of the string, which has the same tension wherever you place the bridge ... if you account for the pitch.

  12. #11

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    Mimbler is correct. This is overwhelmingly simply the case.

    Super4,

    In my opinion it may be worth walking through this. There are more wrinkles to the situation than plain string tension, about which Mimbler could not be more simply and objectively correct.

    But you are also on to something in that there is indeed an effect of the string past the bridge and nut on the increase in tension as a note is fretted. But this effect is both slightly complex and OFTEN of absolutely no consequence whatsoever.

    So if we can agree to keep things civil, and not raise obfuscating objections that can make this a truly tedious exercise, then maybe we can do well for ourselves and others to plow through this subject.

    To respond to your questions:

    >>> Are you suggesting that a fretted note has more tension than an unfretted note?

    Yes. It is under more tension. The fretted string is no longer on the substantially straight path from the nut to the bridge that an open string enjoys. This change in path increases the tension.

    >>> The fretted note isn't higher pitched because it's under more tension, it's higher pitched because it's shorter ... it's under the same tension.

    It is both shorter and under higher tension. The higher tension is why we have bridge compensation, which reduces the effects of this higher tension.

    >>> You're proving my point. Same tension, shorter scale, equals higher pitch.

    Your point is mistaken. Well you are making two points, one of which is mistaken. The other, is a summary that ignores your mistaken aspect:

    >>> Same tension, shorter scale, equals higher pitch.

    This is true. Unfortunately, it is not what happens in the practical world of making guitar noises.

    S4-00: This is meant as a friendly opening to get through the actual situation on a guitar. If we can manage to do this over a day or two or three (WAIT FOR EACH OTHER'S RESPONSE), then we can reasonably declare ourselves to understand the effects of the string length past the nut and bridge, and as a by-product we will be all over both bridge and nut compensation as well.

    This is my idea of fun sometimes, but I understand that it may not be so for many/most others.

    Chris
    Last edited by PTChristopher2; 08-03-2014 at 02:39 PM. Reason: spelling

  13. #12

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  14. #13

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    Cheerios, Chris

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
    Mimbler is correct. This is overwhelmingly simply the case.

    Super4,

    In my opinion it may be worth walking through this. There are more wrinkles to the situation than plain string tension, about which Mimbler could not be more simply and objectively correct.

    But you are also on to something in that there is indeed an effect of the string past the bridge and nut on the increase in tension as a note is fretted. But this effect is both slightly complex and OFTEN of absolutely no consequence whatsoever.

    So if we can agree to keep things civil, and not raise obfuscating objections that can make this a truly tedious exercise, then maybe we can do well for ourselves and others to plow through this subject.

    To respond to your questions:

    >>> Are you suggesting that a fretted note has more tension than an unfretted note?

    Yes. It is under more tension. The fretted string is no longer on the substantially straight path from the nut to the bridge that an open string enjoys. This change in path increases the tension.

    >>> The fretted note isn't higher pitched because it's under more tension, it's higher pitched because it's shorter ... it's under the same tension.

    It is both shorter and under higher tension. The higher tension is why we have bridge compensation, which reduces the effects of this higher tension.

    >>> You're proving my point. Same tension, shorter scale, equals higher pitch.

    Your point is mistaken. Well you are making two points, one of which is mistaken. The other, is a summary that ignores your mistaken aspect:

    >>> Same tension, shorter scale, equals higher pitch.

    This is true. Unfortunately, it is not what happens in the practical world of making guitar noises.

    S4-00: This is meant as a friendly opening to get through the actual situation on a guitar. If we can manage to do this over a day or two or three (WAIT FOR EACH OTHER'S RESPONSE), then we can reasonably declare ourselves to understand the effects of the string length past the nut and bridge, and as a by-product we will be all over both bridge and nut compensation as well.

    This is my idea of fun sometimes, but I understand that it may not be so for many/most others.

    Chris
    I agree a sensitive instrument can measure a change in tension when a string is fretted, but the point of fretting a string is to change the length of the string, not to change the tension of the string. The point of tuning is to change the tension of the string. The point of fretting is to change the length of the vibrating section of the string. That the tension changes in some minute degree is a by-product of the imperfect physical nature of the instrument. Any deformation of the string minutely increases the tension of the string. Presuming a playable action, the tiny increase in tension is accidental not instrumental.

    The important aspect of a trapeze tailpiece, which you-all ignore in favor of focusing on the incidental and unintentional increase in tension when fretting a string, is that the entire length of the string is under tension, not just the section that vibrates between nut and bridge. The longer the over all string (it must be longer to maintain a typical scale and still reach out to a trapeze), the higher the tension on that string must be to tune the string to a standard pitch. The bridge is deforming the string and introducing tension (the higher it is the more tension), by the way, but you'll release tension at the tuners to compensate for that.

    Are you suggesting that the total length of the string under tension (I know you're aware that the string is under tension from the tuner to the ball end) does not impact the amount of tension required to bring the string to a certain pitch?

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimbler
    No it is only the length between the nut and bridge that counts for tension for note. Otherwise frets wouldn't work!
    Agree very much. But we were into this very subject a few days ago in a parallel thread, so I will not repeat myself, as I made my point back there.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
    Mimbler is correct. This is overwhelmingly simply the case.

    Super4,

    In my opinion it may be worth walking through this. There are more wrinkles to the situation than plain string tension, about which Mimbler could not be more simply and objectively correct.

    But you are also on to something in that there is indeed an effect of the string past the bridge and nut on the increase in tension as a note is fretted. But this effect is both slightly complex and OFTEN of absolutely no consequence whatsoever.

    So if we can agree to keep things civil, and not raise obfuscating objections that can make this a truly tedious exercise, then maybe we can do well for ourselves and others to plow through this subject.

    To respond to your questions:

    >>> Are you suggesting that a fretted note has more tension than an unfretted note?

    Yes. It is under more tension. The fretted string is no longer on the substantially straight path from the nut to the bridge that an open string enjoys. This change in path increases the tension.

    >>> The fretted note isn't higher pitched because it's under more tension, it's higher pitched because it's shorter ... it's under the same tension.

    It is both shorter and under higher tension. The higher tension is why we have bridge compensation, which reduces the effects of this higher tension.

    >>> You're proving my point. Same tension, shorter scale, equals higher pitch.

    Your point is mistaken. Well you are making two points, one of which is mistaken. The other, is a summary that ignores your mistaken aspect:

    >>> Same tension, shorter scale, equals higher pitch.

    This is true. Unfortunately, it is not what happens in the practical world of making guitar noises.

    S4-00: This is meant as a friendly opening to get through the actual situation on a guitar. If we can manage to do this over a day or two or three (WAIT FOR EACH OTHER'S RESPONSE), then we can reasonably declare ourselves to understand the effects of the string length past the nut and bridge, and as a by-product we will be all over both bridge and nut compensation as well.

    This is my idea of fun sometimes, but I understand that it may not be so for many/most others.

    Chris
    I agree a sensitive instrument can measure a change in tension when a string is fretted, but the point of fretting a string is to change the length of the string, not to change the tension of the string. The point of tuning is to change the tension of the string. The point of fretting is to change the length of the vibrating section of the string. That the tension changes in some minute degree is a by-product of the imperfect physical nature of the instrument. Any deformation of the string minutely increases the tension of the string. Presuming a playable action, the tiny increase in tension is accidental not instrumental.

    The important aspect of a trapeze tailpiece, which you-all ignore in favor of focusing on the incidental and unintentional increase in tension when fretting a string, is that the entire length of the string is under tension, not just the section that vibrates between nut and bridge. The longer the over all string (it must be longer to maintain a typical scale and still reach out to a trapeze), the higher the tension on that string must be to tune the string to a standard pitch. The bridge is deforming the string and introducing tension (the higher it is the more tension), by the way, but you'll release tension at the tuners to compensate for that.

    Are you suggesting that the total length of the string under tension (I know you're aware that the string is under tension from the tuner to the ball end) does not impact the amount of tension required to bring the string to a certain pitch?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by SuperFour00
    Are you suggesting that the total length of the string under tension (I know you're aware that the string is under tension from the tuner to the ball end) does not impact the amount of tension required to bring the string to a certain pitch?
    I'm not PTChris whom you asked. But if I may give my answer, my short answer is YES.

    As I wrote in the earlier thread: For a given string at a given length (from nut/fret to bridge) there's one and only one tension which will make it play at a given pitch.
    Last edited by oldane; 08-03-2014 at 03:31 PM.

  19. #18

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    Weird science vs. plain science : String Tension .

    (Oops. oldane was posting at the same time as I was posting my snarky bit. Snarky bit not meant for oldane.)
    Last edited by Jabberwocky; 08-03-2014 at 03:36 PM.

  20. #19

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    I may be over-simplifying here, but if we just concentrate on the tuning of an open string, to first order, the three factors that define the frequency of the note are: (i) the distance between the bridge and the nut, (ii) the tension in the string and (iii) the gauge of the string. As the forum doesn't handle equations too well, I won't bother to add it.

    If you then change the length of string behind the bridge, and you are not changing either (i) or (ii) , then the tension required to obtain the same open note must be identical to the original case.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldane
    I'm not PTChris whom you asked. But if I may give my answer, my short answer is YES. As I wrote in the earlier thread: For a given string at a given length (from nut/fret to bridge) there's one and only one tension which will make it play at a given pitch.
    I agree that the tension between the bridge and nut are the same, to achieve the same pitch at the same scale ... I'm referring to the feel of the string based on the remaining length of string behind the bridge which is also at a pitch and also under tension. Later, I'll reluctantly revisit the adjustable L-5 and Super 400 bridges (after the gig).

  22. #21

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    Then you're really talking about compliance, not tension.

  23. #22

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    From Jabber's link:

    "It should be noted that the term tension has a specific meaning in physics and that it is a more restrictive meaning than that of the more vernacular use of the word."

    I think this is at the heart of the discussion in this thread.

  24. #23

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    Hi Super4,

    Some responses and discussion:

    >>> I agree a sensitive instrument can measure a change in tension when a string is fretted,

    Nobody mentioned a sensitive instrument.

    Let's get back in the box of actually playing the guitar with no particular test instrumentation for the moment.

    You and I can easily detect the change in tension as the string is fretted. We detect it as a rise in pitch vs. the actual expected rise based on the fret distance. The note at the 12th fret is MORE than 2X the frequency of the open string. this is due to the added tension (and three other stretches as well, but one thing at a time,...).

    We compensate for this added tension via bridge compensation. This adds some string length to compensate for the added tension. Funciona de cojones.

    >>> but the point of fretting a string is to change the length of the string, not to change the tension of the string.

    True, but rather immaterial. The physical world remains indifferent to our intent. Reality steps in and we get the tension change even though we wish for a pure length change.

    AND, we get the tension change for more than one reason - but more on that later.

    >>> Presuming a playable action, the tiny increase in tension is accidental not instrumental.

    It is not just a tiny change. It is a very real and noticeable to the overwhelming majority of humans. We need to compensate for this.

    Historically, many classical guitars had no bridge compensation. Indeed nylon strings show less pitch change at "playable action" heights. The classical style is also very forgiving to upper register intonation trouble. But for us steel people, it is a very practical issue.

    OK, the next post will get to your next paragraph.

    Chris

  25. #24

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    >>> The important aspect of a trapeze tailpiece, which you-all ignore in favor of focusing on the incidental and unintentional increase in tension when fretting a string,

    Nobody is ignoring anything. You just have mistakenly implied unimportance to what is a very noticeable and significant factor in all of this. It matters, a lot. And it will come back several times as we get through this subject.

    >>> The important aspect of a trapeze tailpiece,[...] is that the entire length of the string is under tension, not just the section that vibrates between nut and bridge.

    This is true.

    >>> The longer the over all string (it must be longer to maintain a typical scale and still reach out to a trapeze), the higher the tension on that string must be to tune the string to a standard pitch.

    This is not true. No. Not at all.

    >>> The bridge is deforming the string and introducing tension (the higher it is the more tension), by the way, but you'll release tension at the tuners to compensate for that.

    Ooops. This is a problem. This is not really a practical view at all of the situation.

    Yes, if we were to somehow tune up a string with no bridge on there, then add a bridge, we would indeed have more string tension. But this never happens in practice.

    In practice, we deform the path of the open string when we fret. This happens and matters quite a bit.

    Wow, this is going to be harder than I expected.

    >>> Are you suggesting that the total length of the string under tension (I know you're aware that the string is under tension from the tuner to the ball end) does not impact the amount of tension required to bring the string to a certain pitch?

    That is exactly the situation. Yes. The total length is not a factor. It is not.

    BUT - this does not mean that the total length has no bearing on the change in tension as we play. We will get to that.

    But we can not get anywhere until it is 100% clear that the resting tension of the open string at a given scale, gauge, and pitch is unaffected by the string length beyond the nut and bridge.

    Chris
    Last edited by PTChristopher2; 08-03-2014 at 09:15 PM. Reason: spelling

  26. #25

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    Cool discussion! Please keep it going. This is how many of us learn.