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Hey everyone,
I live in Taiwan and recently have been acquainted with a guy who has a small luthier shop who mostly makes ukeleles and repairs but also makes archtops occasionally. He was an apprentice of Dale Unger and has several high end Benedetto and Buscarino guitars in his possession. I nearly bought one of his American Archtop guitars but the nut width at 1 3/4 is too much for me.
In the end I decided we'd build a guitar together based on the Benedetto Bambino.
I have been looking at stewmac and thinking of buying all the ebony hardware like tailpiece, finger rest and bridge etc. The tailpiece and finger rest are Benedetto branded. Not sure what kind of wood he has in stock but I plan to have it made with solid european spruce top and solild flame maple back and sides.
The thing I'm not sure about is the neck. Is 3 piece better than 1 piece? mahogany or maple? I think 3 piece maple would be the best as it seems to the norm with these guitars.
Any recommendations, advice, warnings etc greatly appreciated.
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10-06-2013 08:56 PM
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Congrats, that's a great project. Your luthier surely can advise I would think?
I like the 5 piece maple necks (3 piece maple with 2 walnut (?) stripes) for their stability and clear tone. A 1 pc mahogany neck will sound a little sweeter and may or may not be as stable which you notice when using higher gauge strings.
Enjoy the decision making, it's part of the fun.
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Thanks Drifter, I was at the shop today. We discussed the neck and we decided 3 piece maple is the best, However, I don't think we'll do the walnut stripes. Carbon fiber rods are also a good idea, as well as a 2 way truss rod.
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just ordered flame maple neck blanks for the 3 piece neck along with the ebony fret board, fret wire and pretty much everything else to build the neck. Ordered it from stewmac, build will start next week.
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oh boy I am so going to follow this thread from now on
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Several high-end Benedetto and Buscarino guitars hanging in a luthier's shop in Taiwan. A Taiwanese luthier who said he was an apprentice to Dale Unger. String those two statements together and the first thought that comes to mind is: Are you certain they aren't, uh, replicas?
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I see his glue-up but not sure on the grain orientation of what I presume is rock maple?
Why didn't he go for the 5 piece with the 3/32 walnut strips in between the maple pieces?
The walnut strips are not just for decoration, but act as a stabilizer between the middle maple piece and the outer maple pieces. By the time you carve down a 3 piece maple neck to the right thickness and dimensions..the outer pieces are very thin because of the carving (rounding of the neck), and about 75% of the string tension (say 175lbs with heavy guage strings)is focused on the
center maple piece..so that better be quarter sawn or it will WARP!
Be interesting to see the carved neck with the ebony FB....where are the picks for the body construction?
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There's nothing wrong with the way this luthier is gluing up this neck. The stock he is using is flatsawn. However, once it's glued up it will in effect be on the quarter. The walnut strips that Gibson uses are not functional as walnut is not nearly as stiff as maple (soft or hard). Gibson probably had a bunch of thin maple stock that they wanted to use up so they thought to add walnut to get the desired width. That's the way a lot of decions are made in a factory setting and then it's up to the add/sales people to sell it. I don't work with much Walnut but from what I can tell it's not that much more stable in service than maple. Anyway, maple is actually marginally stiffer when it's flatsawn since the load is being applied perpendicular to the growth rings. But to be honest it doesn't matter one way or the other. There are literally thousands of vintage Fender necks out in the wild that are doing just fine and they are almost exclusively flatsawn one piece necks. There are also literally thousands of perfectly quartered laminated rock maple necks that have twisted like bananas. It has been my experience (after many years of repair) that makers try and maximize their chances of success by using well seasoned and well quartered wood but if the wood wants to move it's going to and you aren't going to stop it.
Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
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Explain please what you mean. Originally Posted by jasonc
Ok.The walnut strips that Gibson uses are not functional as walnut is not nearly as stiff as maple (soft or hard). Gibson probably had a bunch of thin maple stock that they wanted to use up so they thought to add walnut to get the desired width. That's the way a lot of decisions are made in a factory setting and then it's up to the add/sales people to sell it.
I've worked with it a LOT (Black NA Walnut). properly kiln dried or even long term air dried it is VERY STABLE. I've used it on my custom made LP types, Neck through design.I don't work with much Walnut but from what I can tell it's not that much more stable in service than maple.
I believe it is the other way around. Stew-Mac sells flat sawn maple and according to their reviews,it ain't that good for stability and warp-page. Of course, we don't know where Stew-Mac get their mapleAnyway, maple is actually marginally stiffer when it's flatsawn since the load is being applied perpendicular to the growth rings.
neck blanks.
Gibson uses quartersawn-flatsawn-quartersawn with the thin walnut strips in between for stabilty.
http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bodies,_...ck_Blanks.html
Read what some of the Stew-Mac customer's reviews on flat sawn maple blanks. However, gluing up 3 pieces
of flat sawn forms a laminate neck which is always stronger than a solid one piece neck.
True,it all depends on the tree, how it's sawn, how it;s air dried and what conditions, and if it is additionallyBut to be honest it doesn't matter one way or the other. There are literally thousands of vintage Fender necks out in the wild that are doing just fine and they are almost exclusively flatsawn one piece necks. There are also literally thousands of perfectly quartered laminated rock maple necks that have twisted like bananas. It has been my experience (after many years of repair) that makers try and maximize their chances of success by using well seasoned and well quartered wood but if the wood wants to move it's going to and you aren't going to stop it.
kiln dried to add stability.Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 10-29-2013 at 06:21 PM.
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What I mean is that if you take a flatsawn board and turn it on its side the grain orientation is seen on the quarter. While the sawyer didn't mill it on the quarter that is how it ends up.
Properly kiln dried maple is also pretty stable. But like I said you still never really know until you mill it. I've milled 4/4 stock (so not a huge billet) that I've had for a decade that had all kinds of internal stresses. You just never know. My point is still that the grain orientation in a neck is not as big of a deal as lot of people make it out to be. Grain orientation and run-out in braces is a completely different thing however.
Gibson may SAY they are for stability but they aren't. If you are going for strength and stability why would you add a lamination of a material that isn't as dense and isn't as rigid as the main material? It's like having two pieces of stainless steel with a piece of soft iron in the center. Those two pieces of 3/32" walnut aren't going to keep the maple from moving if it wants to.
I've worked on a gazillion old guitars, cellos and violins including a 1701 Matthius Albanus (so definitely no kiln drying for that one) with flatsawn, quartersawn and even riftsawn necks and none warp any more than another.
If that neck warps it's not because that luthier did it wrong. What he's doing is completely standard issue.
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Not sure how I should take this, is it a serious question or are you being funny? Honestly, that thought never came into my mind. From what I know, there are 2 archtops hanging up in his shop, one is a Dale unger and the other is a Buscarino. As for the Benedettos, I have actually not even seen them in person, he likes to keep them locked up somewhere. So if they were replicas then I don't think he'd be doing that, he'd be selling them on alibaba or something wouldn't he? But we're not in China, we're in Taiwan(the real china btw haha). Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
If anybody is interested in a Buscarino, Benedetto, or American Archtop, let me know. They are the real deal, I have no doubt about that.
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Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
Pretty sure he's doing it the same way Benedetto and Dale unger does it. Never seen or heard of walnut in any of those guitars.
Body construction pics will be up one day, have not even ordered the wood...
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[QUOTE=jasonc;373150 Grain orientation and run-out in braces is a completely different thing however.
[/QUOTE]
I understand that braces should be quartersawn, with vertical grain alignment. What happens if the bracing is not quartersawn in say a parallel-braced archtop?
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Originally Posted by Daniel Kuryliak
Maybe it's Jazz Maple, not Rock Maple.
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In brace stock you want as much strength to weight as is possible, irrespective of which bracing pattern you use. In soft woods like spruce, which is what the vast majority of makers use, you get more strength for the same weight if it's quartersawn. Now the run-out is also very important in braces because braces can fail if they have excessive run-out. If you have ever seen a guitar where the two halves of the top look like they are different colors depending on how you hold it in the light then you have seen run-out. Frank Ford has a good explanation for runout here. http://www.lutherie.net/frankford.runout.html He is talking about it in regards to the soundboard and not the braces but you get the idea. Here's another link from James McKean explaining some of the reasons for choosing one grain orientation for another http://www.allthingsstringscommunity...lo-3-selecting Originally Posted by fritz jones
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Hello, I am new here just looking around when I found this thread. I built a Benedetto Archtop from his " Building an Archtop Guitar" book, got one of the first editions sent to me autographed, great book. I found there was more work in making all the different fixtures than actually building the guitar. But, you can customize as you go, I inlaid my name in MOP in the headstock, inlaid custom Art Deco fret markers etc. I used a tri color sunburst with spray lacquer cans from guitar re-ranch, worked really well. Armstrong Jazz pickup, tune-o-matic bridge etc. I have since shattered my left wrist in a M/C accident, it is held together with plates and screws which make this particular neck uncomfortable for me to play. Some day I will take a draw knife to it and shape it to Epiphone LP and Casino type specs, and get back to playing it. Good luck with your project, have fun.
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Not taking about Benedetto or Dale Unger..I'm talking 'bout the granddaddy of all of those that encouraged a generation of luthiers...the Lloyd Loar designed Gibson L5. Originally Posted by steves3972
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Elec...m/L-5-CES.aspx
The 25½-inch scale length neck is a five-piece neck made primarily from high-grade maple, with two streamers made from high-grade walnut, resulting in one of the most stunning neck designs in the history of Gibson Custom. The eye-catching neck is topped by a 20-fret ebony fingerboard with pearl block inlays and multi-ply black and white binding, then hand-fitted with Gibson’s traditional ES-rounded neck profile.
BTW..the sales literature is WRONG. The headstock emblem is a FLAMING TORCH symbol, not the "flower pot" design the
writer mentioned..sheesh!...you would think that somebody at Gibson would have proof read the ad.
Now about the TP..while I have no dislikes with the violin style ebony TP that a lot of custom luthiers provide with their offerings...a wooden
TP does not have (IMO) the metallic string bar mass to get the best harmonics from the strings... I'm talking 2nd.-3rd -4th and 5th harmonic
of a vibrating string..not just the 1st at the 12th fret.Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-06-2013 at 03:53 AM.
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Good Job! JHunter; You IS da Man! Originally Posted by JHunter
Hello, I am new here just looking around when I found this thread. I built a Benedetto Archtop from his " Building an Archtop Guitar" book, got one of the first editions sent to me autographed, great book. I found there was more work in making all the different fixtures than actually building the guitar. But, you can customize as you go, I inlaid my name in MOP in the headstock, inlaid custom Art Deco fret markers etc. I used a tri color sunburst with spray lacquer cans from guitar re-ranch, worked really well. Armstrong Jazz pickup, tune-o-matic bridge etc. I have since shattered my left wrist in a M/C accident, it is held together with plates and screws which make this particular neck uncomfortable for me to play. Some day I will take a draw knife to it and shape it to Epiphone LP and Casino type specs, and get back to playing it. Good luck with your project, have fun.
The Indian Rosewood FB looks a bit dry though. You need to rub some oil on it to bring out some of the grain. I would have used Macassar ebony, but that's my preference in a custom made jazz box.
Sorry to hear about your Motorcycle accident..I was in one too, but survived without barely a scratch (By the
Grace of God)..that is why I am still here today.
My suggestion to you, having built some custom Les Pauls myself from scratch is;
Please do not shave anything from the neck of your finished creation..it is a Gift from Above..I'm sure it sounds as good as it looks too.
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I see what you mean Jason. about a flat sawn board on it's side. Yes, that will work, (I guess) but also the grain should be running in the opposite orientation to the other two pieces that should have the grain running the same way. Originally Posted by jasonc
However..even if flat sawn wood is turned on it's edge..it still does not equate quarter sawn dimensional lumber (sawn on the grain bias) which most sawyers find very difficult to cut..easier just to flat (plain saw) everything.
If you look at the example drawings of the growth rings on a tree such as hard (sugar) maple,
you will see that the flat sawn lumber will have the growth rings running in a completely different
orientation from quarter sawn. The difference in wood density between the rings can cause instability
in necks under tension. That is why some luthiers get their neck wood from custom sawyers and not
from places like Stew-Mac which sell only flat sawn. Some of the comments from their customers
indicate that the neck blanks became unstable..but of course if you don't laminate the neck in
at least 3 individual pieces, more than likely under string tension, it will move and become unstable
with bows.Last edited by Daniel Kuryliak; 11-06-2013 at 05:36 AM.
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Luckily you don't have to guess because it does work. A FLAT sawn board (not rift sawn) on it's side will have the same grain orientation as a quartersawn board. No, you don't have to change the orientation of the laminations. Gibson doesn't. The earliest L-5's had three piece necks consisting of maple/walnut strip/maple. Sawyers charge more for quartersawn stock not because it's more difficult to cut. They charge more because a quartersawn log yields less lumber and creates more waste. Also, we are not talking about dimensional lumber (2x4's etc.).
The growth rings aren't any different in sugar maple than in any other tree. If you look at your own diagram you'll see that the in the "plainsawn" one you'll find a lot of boards that will end up as quartered even though they weren't sawn that way. Take note also that in the diagram of the quartered log the farther out you go the more off quarter each board becomes. You do not have to make a laminated neck, period. D'Angelico made his guitars almost exclusively with one piece necks. If the neck blanks from StewMac are warping it's not because they're flatsawn it's because they aren't seasoned.
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Thank for the kind words Daniel, I just took it off the wall for the first time in a year or so and forgot that I had temporarily installed a plastic nut while waiting for a bone blank. So a fretboard oil, make the nut, some flatwounds, a lacquer buff up and it should be good to go. Also it is a little easier now for me to fit my wrist around the neck! Time heals I guess. One of the most pleasing and time consuming tasks were doing the Deco fret inlays and my last name in the headstock. One pic shows a black and white guitar hanging on the wall, that is also an unfinished creation of mine, cheers, John.
Last edited by JHunter; 11-06-2013 at 04:51 PM. Reason: wrong picture
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Forgot this picture.
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I'm well aware of what quartersawn lumber looks like and that isn't it. The board that you show is rift sawn. It's about 45 degrees off quarter. It would make excellent table legs because you see straight grain from every side, as your first pic clearly shows.
"Yes you can make a neck from a carved one piece of rock maple, but today those pieces are probably harder to
find than 50 years or so ago. Maple trees take a long time to grown."
Or you could just go to a reputable hardwood/tonewood dealer and get some 10/4 flatsawn (not riftsawn) stock and turn it on its side.
To the OP: Your luthier is doing a good job as far as I can see. Keep the pics coming. I enjoy build threads as much as anyone else. Even I like to steal good ideas for jigs and fixtures when I see them
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