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Originally Posted by Bryan T
Thank you!
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02-11-2013 06:14 PM
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[QUOTE=vejesse;295367]I'm no Luddite. But I consider the PLEK machine in a special, marginal class. Even though it's just as pricey or in cases more so, it's not nearly as valuable to the world at large as the average "conventional" CNC machine tool, at least not yet.
This is not correct vej. If you research the attributes of a Plek machine further, I think you might have a different opinion. Now, that's not to say that a very skilled guitar tech or luthier couldn't get a guitar's frets to a point where the guitar plays effortless and with no buzzing or fretting out at very low action. But, if a human ever does as perfect a job as a Plek machine, (in the hands of a tech who knows how to use the Plek properly) . . . it'll more than likely be by accident. There is virtually no way that the human eye, touch and feel . . . with a fret rocker or a straight edge . . could possibly replicate the consistancy and accuracy of such a machine.There's nothing a PLEK machine can do that a human being isn't capable of doing if that human being "has the right stroke".
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Here's my take on the PLEK. I've done enough work as a machinist to know know one important fact related to this discussion, and that is you can't have accuracy without rigidity. Picture this: Make a feather weight machine tool designed with many critical housings made not of seasoned iron castings but from machined or even extruded aluminum. Then very lightly clamp your rubbery (wooden) part in place. Does that sound like a rigid setup?
Here's the rub. The claim is 0.0004" flatness over the length of the neck. I'm not sure if they officially claim each fret top is within 0.0004" of the string lie datum plane but this sounds right. Were not even talking about a simple plane but a lofted 3-d surface. And not even a ground surface but a milled surface (their current cutter choice) made from squishy wood and brass lightly tacked in the wood. Anyone ever grind an 18" or 20 long piece of thicker stable steel that's 3" inches wide? Not easy to get .0004 flatness over that distance with your typical clapped out large surface grinder. Now try that with a mill. Then have a semi skilled guy polish out the tool marks. See what I'm getting at?
Take that guitar out of the machine and play it for a week. Take it to bars and through the normal weather changes. Then clamp that guitar to a CMM table and take measurements. The dimensions of those frets tops won't resemble what the neck looked like a week before while in the machine.
Maybe some people familiar with the current state of the art concerning PLEK could answer this question for me: Why change to the carbide cutter? A toothed carbide cutter would have a minimum depth of cut and a much higher cutting pressure. Wouldn't the neck push away from the cutter much more than with their CBN wheel or whatever cutter the PLEK Basic used? I dunno.
I understand that a "problem" neck would benefit from the use of the PLEK, especially if no live body wants to take on the challenge. But the PLEK only levels frets, it doesn't level fingerboards before a refret. Are we to correct the fingerboard surface by hand through a refret, then send the guitar to a PLEK for a fret leveling? Nonsense!
I hope I'm not taken the wrong way because I've love the idea of the PLEK. It's interesting as heck and I'm looking forward to seeing what develops from those guys. As of now it looks like it could be a wise investment for production. But if I had $100,000 lying around would I buy a PLEK Station for a mom and pop sized guitar repair shop? I can think of a better investment.
I'll admit that I've only examined two guitars that had frets leveled by the Plek. One was a Korean made bass guitar. You know the company. The other was a Les Paul done by a Plek Station.
My conclusion: My best work is equal to the Plek. My work on a bad day was not but I can live with that.Last edited by vejesse; 02-12-2013 at 09:07 AM.
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I think that some people are missing the fact that PLEK is also a business decision. Advertise it, use the time you would have used doing a fret job to do something else. If you have a truly busy shop it can pay for itself. While I think that it's true that a very good luthier can match a PLEK most of the time...a PLEK can match a very good luthier ALL of the time.
I'd say that Joe Glaser has been one of the best in Nashville, if not everywhere. But he's got one. Why? Because fret jobs get boring when you have the volume of business he has. When I was in his shop he was repairing an old Gibson style O that belonged to Elvis Costello and had had the business end of a forklift put through its back.
He had time to take on that challenge because the PLEK was doing my fret work.
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Unless I misunderstood, the Plek does level fingerboards now. A fairly recent development, I think. Originally Posted by vejesse
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if your frets buzz you might be able to benefit from a PLEK. I have, many times.
or you might just need a truss rod adjustment. however, the PLEK operator can make very sensitive truss rod adjustments with the visual aid of the PLEK's "super exaggerated graph on the display screen" thing (I don't know what its really called). I have benefitted from this a number of times as well.
i would like to think that new guitars made by good luthiers don't need a PLEK job. i would like to think that refret jobs performed by solid craftsmen don't need a PLEK job either. i would like to think that PLEK jobs are only needed after wear and tear. but we can't always get what we want, can we?
in the end, its just a tool folks, and a damned good one.
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I plek'd a guitar with a belt sander, it took those frets right down!
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Not sure where you heard that Bryan, but I don't see how it could be possible.?.? When you say "level a fingerboard . . . I'm thinking you are talking about sanding or planing the board?? The frets obviously need to come out to do that. So, are you saying that you've heard that a tech can remove to frets, then put the guitar into the Plek machine without frets . . and have the machine read and level the fingerboard?? Then the tech would install new frets . . put the guitar back into the Plek and have those read and perfected. I could see that as being possible. (How cool would THAT be???) Originally Posted by Bryan T
But, it would require a complete change over of the machine itself . . . totally different tool heads to accomplish each individual task.
Naaaahhhh . . . I think you misunderstood.
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I'll ask again the next time I'm at the shop, but there was discussion of leveling the fingerboard on a fretless bass. And of leveling a board during construction or prior to a refret. But maybe I misunderstood? Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Frets are a press-fit into the FB. Installing frets changes the compression of the FB surface.
Some sort of ultra-precise leveling of the FB would be hard to value considering that you will then add compression to the surface in a progressive manner (more frets per inch as you head up the FB).
Using a CNC system to carve the FB surface is fine, but it does not offer some sort of unique final precision.
And all of this still needs to be considered, as VJ mentioned, in light of the environmental factors that act on your guitar on a daily basis.
Chris
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You guys are getting me really excited about taking my guitars over to my friend and bass players house. 4 months ago he bought a Plek for his business. He's the only person around here who has one.
He uses it for his NEW basses. He's a manufacturer who has his basses built in Korea and shipped here where he assembles and Pleks them to order. I am invited to plek any of my guitars for free.
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That's awesome! I'd be over there ASAP. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Interesting point. It seems to me that one could take into account that compression in how the fingerboard is prepared. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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He and his assistant have been working out the kinks and gaining certainty. They're probably on it by now. I just did a couple of gigs with my buddy. He says they've got it down pretty much. The only difficulty is knowing for sure what the client wants. Originally Posted by Bryan T
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Long time lurker here, but thought I'd chime in on this one as there seems to be a good deal of curiosity and a bit of info might clear a few things up. First, I own a Plek, full disclosure and all that... I think Henry really hit it on the head with his comment about the tech knowing the client's needs. That step in the process is the most important, and will impact the entire outcome. The Plek has a neck relief algorithm that is determined by the string gauge, type and tuning and also by the desired string action height. Explained simply, if a player wants very low action, the Plek will recommend less relief based on the assumption that the player will have a lighter attack. If the player likes high action, the relief will be greater based on the assumption of a heavier attack. The difference between less and more is very subtle, but it makes a huge difference. The tech can override any setting and can custom tailor the Plek fret dress exactly to the player's need, if the tech is savvy enough to translate. After the Plek, the hand set-up is extremely important, and will make or break the job, just as it would with a hand level. Henry, it sounds like your friend has it handled, so I bet you will be very happy with the result. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
As for the fingerboard planing, the Plek does plane fingerboards, as it has a high speed motor that accepts different cutters. One of the cutters is a small end mill, which is used for board planing. After the frets are in, the guitar is scanned so if there is any compression the truss rod can be adjusted to allow for that. I have found that if the fret slots are properly prepared, I have no compression issues at all.
Chris is right that if the accuracy of the fingerboard is compromised in subsequent steps, it is of little use to be overly accurate, but if you don't compromise it, the result can be amazing. I have planed boards in the Plek, fretted them and found that they really didn't need to have the frets dressed at all. I always do because there will be an imperfection here or there on the scan, and I'm paid to make those go away, but nothing that would have been noticeable to the player.
I reread this entire thread, and there are so many good points and interesting questions. If anyone has specific questions about the Plek or the process, I'm happy to try and answer them. All in all, the Plek is a great tool that allows extremely accurate and repeatable fretwork, and it saves my bad elbow!
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Excellent post sfguitarworks! Thanks for your input!
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Henry . . . if I may be so bold as to offer some advice . . . . hold off. Hold off especially if your guitars are currently acceptable to you as they are. Let your friend/bass player become more accustomed with the machine and the set up process before you give him your guitars. "The only difficulty is knowing for sure what the client wants" . . . is a slightly alarming statement to me. Your friend should ask you to play for him so he can see how hard you hit . . . how much you dig in. He's gonna want to see, know and understrand your touch with the pick in various playing situations. Then, he's going to want to know how you like your fingerboard (relief) . . slight bow/back bow . . straight as a rifle shot . . etc.. Then he's gonna want to know where you prefer your action set. After knowing all of that . . . you're no longer a relavent issue. Then, it's up to him and the Plek. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I've seen fingerboards where the top of the board was machined with a ball end mill and there's still plenty of sanding to do after that. Kind of negates the CNC accuracy, no? The way the spindle is oriented you're forced to use an end mill. If you could use for example a super coarse diamond wheel that wouldn't load up with wood , and align that up and down along the neck I could really see that being nice for fingerboards.
By the way, funny how things change. On another discussion board I remember seeing a highly opinionated San Francisco Guitar Works tech vehemently denouncing the PLEK maybe two years ago. I see that he's still on board. Does he run the machine now?
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HA!! Looks like I was typing while sfguitarworks was posting. He's obviously got the hands on experience . . but, it seems we pretty much concur.
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I have 10 guitars he can plek. My main guitar is a frigging mess, but I play it too much for it to get handled. I'll let him start on some of my other ones first. But my 355 desperately needs some attention. But not until I've tried the Plek on some other instruments first.
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I am very impressed with the playability of the Plek'd guitars that I have played and the technology makes alot of sense to me. On behalf of the Canadians here, what is the best option for us if we want to get a guitar Plek'd? By the time we pay for shipping to the USA and back (and sort out the customs challenges) the job could get very expensive. Does anyone in Canada have a Plek machine?
Keith
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Hey SF'works,
Many thanks for weighing in on this with your hands-on (which is sort of ironic here, but meant respectfully) Plek views.
I hope your bizz is well.
Chris
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Well keep in mind that if your main guitar is a friggin' mess, as you said it is . . . the Plek is not an end all be all cure all. Make sure you've got adequate confidence in your tech's over all ability to address the things that need to be addressed, and to do so competently . . before he even thinks of putting your guitar on the Plek for anything other than a computer read out of its current condition. You're a pro . . and I'm sure you realize there's a whole hell of a lot more to a great set up than a Plek job. By the way . . an ES355 is a great guitar!!! I can understand why it's your #1. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
(Although, hearing myself saying it as I'm typing it . . . a "Plek job", does sound kinda . . . erotic . . does it not????)
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+1 Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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He doesn't just run it, he owns it! I had seen so many Plek'd guitars come in to the shop - Gibson, Martin, Plek'd in shops - that were substandard, that I threw the Plek under the bus without having a thorough understanding of how much influence the tech has on the process, and without considering the fact that I had no knowledge of the instruments' history. Had the frets been glued? Had it been in a hot car for a month? Did someone work on it after it was Plek'd? There are so many variables. Luckily when I walked up to the Plek booth at NAMM popping off at the mouth, just like I had been doing on the internet, Joe Glaser was patient enough to just show me how the machine works. It was quite the eye opening experience, and I realized that no matter how good my fretwork was, and it was as good as any, the Plek offers a level of diagnostic and practical accuracy that traditional methods just can't hope to match. Originally Posted by vejesse
As for the sanding that's necessary after the fingerboard milling, it's minimal, and I bet most folks wouldn't notice it if we left the board alone. The step-over ratio is so small that the lines are practically invisible, and the end mill works great.
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