Truss Rod Adjusting

[edh]

I have read conflicting statements regarding truss rod adjustments. One says to adjust the rod with strings on and the other says to adjust the rod with the strings off.

What is the correct way to adjust the truss rod?

[kris]

I adjust the rod with strings.

[hot ford coupe]

If I'm going to attempt to level my frets, I'll adjust the neck straight without the strings. If I find after a while I have too much relief in the neck, I'll adjust the rod with the strings on and then wait a week or three and then recheck.

[SamBooka]

If it is just a tweak that you do a couple times a year leave the strings on.
If it is a guitar that I am unfamilar with ... leave the strings on but I listen to my gut.
If I think there are going to be issues.. or am having issues.. I will back it off.
I have even done the Erlewine neck clamp thing but if the neck is solid and the nut is turning well on the rod I dont find it helps. By that point is it is usually the wood at the net that has compressed.

So ... 9/10 I do it with the strings on and full tension with no issues.

[Klatu]

Where have you read that the rod should be adjusted without the strings on? I always adjust the truss rod with the strings on because I want to know how the string tension will affect the neck bow rather than having to guess. If I were to adjust the truss without the strings on, I'd have to detune and re-tune the guitar several times before hitting the sweet spot and might end up popping your strings with such manipulation.

I only adjust truss rods without string tension when I need to pull necks off of Strats to get to their adjustment screws.

[PTChristopher]

>>> the other says to adjust the rod with the strings off.

So "the other" has you guess the adjustment, then bring the strings back up to tension?

Strings on of course (excepting those Fender buried screws as the Klat-meister mentions).

Now if the nut seems to not be turning, or if it is turning but the neck is not moving - then yes, getting the tension off the strings can be helpful while you figure out what is wrong.

But for normal adjustments, the strings need to be under tension.

In my opinion.

Chris

[balthazar]

To check neck relief : strings on.

Truss rod is used to counteract strings tension.

Too much relief : thighten the truss rod.
Not enough relief : loosen the truss rod.

You can leave the strings on during adjustment.

[Spook410]

- I usually loosen the strings before I tighten the nut (seems I never loosen it). 1/4 turn before checking the result.

- A tiny bit of grease on the threads is nice. Just barely, barely enough. You don't want any getting on the wood even if it were to soften in hot weather. The wood has enough issues to deal with at the headstock/neck joint.

- You have to tighten the strings to regular pitch to check relief. How the neck is reacting to tension is what you're measuring.

- I don't let it sit for days. More like 5 minutes. I've seen both advertised as being right. Dunno.

- Repeat until relief is where you want it. .013 at the 7th fret, G string used to measure is typical. More than I like. I like about as little relief as I can get as long as it doesn't go negative.

- I prefer to measure with a metal ruler versus the string method. I can see the gap better and it's much more convenient. Requires a longer straight edge though.

Reference (though differing a bit from how I do it): FRETS.COM

[PTChristopher]

In my opinion, 1/4 of a turn is a huge amount for the thread pitch on most truss rods.

Sure, there are those that are horribly out of adjustment. But for a typical seasonal tweak, you may find that as little as 1/16th of a turn (or something like that) can make a very noticeable difference.

While it certainly varies from player to player, too much relief is the far more common condition. In my experience, most players who have really tried some very careful adjustments and tested them in real playing conditions end up with rather modest relief - along the lines of Frank Ford's recommendations. (Which is hardly shocking news; Frank Ford can be counted on for extremely good and useful views.)

I aim for the thickness of the B string unless there is a very specific reason for doing otherwise.

All in my opinion.

Chris

[SamBooka]

- I usually loosen the strings before I tighten the nut (seems I never loosen it). 1/4 turn before checking the result.

That would alarm me if I had a guitar that I only ever tightened the TRod!!

[PTChristopher]

>>> That would alarm me if I had a guitar that I only ever tightened the TRod!!

Last one of these that I encountered was a modern Hofner where the metal surface behind the truss rod nut was being driven down into the neck. So you could tighten as long as you wanted - but presumably the maple neck would eventually be driven asunder by events.

Fortunately this guitar (a really fine Verythin JS) had a block inlay at the first fret. So out with the inlay, excavate through the FB, re-build the maple surfaces against which the truss rod nut is supposed to bear (but were to small and eventually damaged in this case), then fix the whole mess and put in a new block o' MOP - and we were back in business.

This sounds like a big deal, but was really faster/easier than a fret job.

The hard part I suppose was knowing to not keep driving the truss rod nut once it was clear that it was having no effect.

If I may add while we are on the subject:

Tightening the truss rod can feel quite stiff, so much so that it can be hard to tell "kinda stiff" from "fixin' to die stiff".

I definitely suggest taking Frank Ford's [always] good advice and removing the nut and lubing the threads. I would use a tiny amount of grease in favor of oil I suppose. I use some very thick silicone grease - a truly miniscule amount.

All in my opinion.

Chris

[Spook410]

In my opinion, 1/4 of a turn is a huge amount for the thread pitch on most truss rods.
Chris

That would alarm me if I had a guitar that I only ever tightened the TRod!!

Don't know about seasonal and would certainly defer to you guys. New guitars and guitars that have been un-played in their cases for some years have been it for me recently. Not one of them has had too little relief and required the truss rod to be loosened.

1/4 turn is a number I've seen on several sites. That doesn't make it right of course. Didn't see a recommendation from Mr. Ford on this particular metric other than his statement that you can't hurt much if you're careful.

Do have a question: One guitar, a new one, seems to require more truss rod tightening than it should. How do I check to see if the wood is being crushed? Visual inspection looks OK to my inexperienced eye. I did have to get rid of the piece of pot metal that was intended to contact the wood behind the nut. It was and odd size, too thin, and wasn't suitable to the task. Replaced it with a couple of stainless washersthat looked about the right size. Still, doesn't seem like I'm seeing expected results. I can err on caution and take it to a local tech to check if there is an art to it. (oddly enough, Bill Richardson who worked alongside Mr. Ford for many years)

[HighSpeedSpoon]

I loosen the strings before turning but leave them on. However after reading this thread, I will only loosen the strings if the truss rod nut does not turn easily. Either way, a 1/4 turn is the max I would turn the nut at one time, and on one of my guitars, I won't turn more than 1/8th turn.

[PTChristopher]

>>> 1/4 turn is a number I've seen on several sites.

Yeah, that seems to be up there with "I have better things to do than this forum." as classic online statements.

I suppose that most feel that "1/4 turn" sounds like less than you use on a car wheel lug nut - so must represent care and micro-fine control.

And indeed, when faced with many hopelessly maladjusted guitars, far more than a 1/4 turn can be in order. But once we are into making an adjustment from "playable but not ideal" to really a fine setup, then remarkably small amounts of adjustment can get you to half or double the target relief.

More unsolicited blather:

Primary reason for relief is to allow optimal fret clearance by having the frets follow the arc of a vibrating string. After the brief attack, the curve of this arc is really quite small.

I suggest starting by getting the nut DOWN. You can not at all set relief if the nut is wrong.

Then try the thickness of your B string for relief. Then adjust the "action" via bridge height (the only way to actually adjust action).

Now if you get buzz when digging into slashing chords down low but no buzz up high, try a touch more relief (and I mean like going from the thickness of the B string to the thickness of the G.) Now also make a slight re-adjustment of bridge height after the new relief is set to get the action at the 12th fret more or less back to where it was.

If all is fine when comping down low, but you get fret buzz when comping and soloing up high (and there are no fret-leveling problems), try less relief - also with a corresponding bridge adjustment. You would take out a touch of relief and add a touch of bridge height.

All in my opinion.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

Hi HS-Spoon,

Off-topic:

Man you had me fooling with string windings this morning (waiting for the snow to die down before clearing it.)

I can not get any practical response whatsoever from brass/bronze, and can not convince myself that I can really tell the difference between the pickup volume from nickel vs. steel windings in practice.

Thanks for bringing up the subject.

I still love my T-I nickel, but will have to accept that it is a feel and sound preference - with no practical volume balance vs. steel windings.

Sorry for the off-topic drift.

Chris

[DC Ron]

On a new guitar, I leave the strings at pictch unless I'm not getting the relief response I expect. Then I'll loosen the strings, remove the nut, lubricate the threads, retighten, etc. 90% of the time the TR works as it should without help.

[edh]

@PTChristopher, what do you mean by this:

"I suggest starting by getting the nut DOWN. You can not at all set relief if the nut is wrong."

Thanks

[PTChristopher]

>>> @PTChristopher, what do you mean by this:

>>> "I suggest starting by getting the nut DOWN. You can not at all set relief if the nut is wrong."

Hi edh,

Just go to Frank Ford's site and read about nut height - it is all there and very clear. No other adjustment at all can be really done well if the nut is not right first. Many guitars have nut slots that are too high. In my opinion.

Nut Action

Nuts!

Chris

[PTChristopher]

[Spook] >>> Do have a question: One guitar, a new one, seems to require more truss rod tightening than it should. How do I check to see if the wood is being crushed? Visual inspection looks OK to my inexperienced eye. I did have to get rid of the piece of pot metal that was intended to contact the wood behind the nut. It was and odd size, too thin, and wasn't suitable to the task. Replaced it with a couple of stainless washersthat looked about the right size. Still, doesn't seem like I'm seeing expected results. I can err on caution and take it to a local tech to check if there is an art to it. (oddly enough, Bill Richardson who worked alongside Mr. Ford for many years)

In my opinion, actual wood crushing (after some slight "bedding-in" which always happens) is pretty unusual.

One symptom will be that the nut is not really all that hard to turn, the nut clearly keeps moving down the rod threads, and the neck does not move. Now if you turn far enough, you can possibly cause the neck to split apart (and all the kids at school will laugh at you).

If you turn the nut, and it gets progressively harder to turn, but the neck does not move - this can be a number of things - but is probably not a wood crushing/splitting disaster in the making. I have seen truss rods that got effectively glued/rusted into place and did nothing, but this is also somewhat rare.

The technology here is pretty simple, but rather unforgiving of excessive force.

****************************************

The common disasters:

- Stripped nut. This is not so bad really and a VERY good reason why a brass nut on a steel rod - and a nut with not very deep threads can be a good idea.

- Broken rod right at the nut. This is bad but sometimes fixable if you are very careful. It involves digging deeper into the neck and using threads past the break (which are often there). It is tricky. Stewmac sells a tool set for exactly this situation. I have never used their tools for this, but they look pretty good, but far from idiot proof.

- Broken rod at the bottom or at least well past the top. This is the big disaster. The FB needs to come off, new channel cut, new rod, replace the FB. $600 to $1,000 depending on the details. Maybe cheaper in very low cost markets, or if you try (and succeed) to keep the frets in there. Big deal, refinish work, but can be as good as new.

****************************

I suggest first making sure that the nut is truly turning freely and is also sliding against your washers with no binding. If the nut is only hitting one small place on a tilted washer, this can bind things up.

If you are 100% sure that the neck is not moving at all in response to the truss rod, then I really suggest going to your local pro as mentioned. He will have a good feel for what is tight, really tight, kind of too tight, something is wrong tight, etc. - and also be able to very quickly see of the neck is moving as it should.

Please let us know how it all turns out.

Chris

[SamBooka]

@PTChristopher, what do you mean by this:

"I suggest starting by getting the nut DOWN. You can not at all set relief if the nut is wrong."

Thanks

Not sure I agree, because the truss rod adjustment is independent of the nut
You're measuring the neck from the first fret, Not from the nut
We all have our own ways ways of doing things, but usually I start with the nut Because it is easier to work on if you detune a little
Next is truss rod
Then action
Then pick up height
ThenIntonation

[PTChristopher]

Hey Drew,

>>> Not sure I agree, because the truss rod adjustment is independent of the nut
>>> You're measuring the neck from the first fret, Not from the nut

You are of course right, and indeed you can set the relief before doing the nut. I do things in the same order as you, except for the PU, which is dead last for me.

In my way of thinking:

- You can not set bridge compensation if the action is not set.

- You can not set action if the relief and nut are not right. I mean you can adjust bridge height to a given 12th fret clearance (or however you want to measure action), but this 12th fret clearance will be affected by a possibly incorrect nut and relief.

But yes indeed you could do relief first, then the nut. I am wrong to suggest otherwise, but my personal view is that the nut is the basis of everything else, so I do it first.

****************

Funny enough, there is the concept that if you have a serious amount of neck relief, then this "bow" should also project from the first fret to the nut. So arguably, you could want to first set some very high amount of relief (if that was, for some reason, the goal) then add some height to the nut to continue this ski-jump bow.

**************

Thanks for catching my sloppy over-step. Good part of the forum in my opinion.

Chris

[SamBooka]

No ppro you can also do pu height after intonation but just make sure they are well clear of the strings first see it more on strats but a neck pu too close to the strings can wonk the intonation

[PTChristopher]

Indeed. The warbles on Strats.

I am hard pressed to get a normal-size HB to have an effect on strings over .011 to .050 or so - even if the PU's are really close.

But yeah, three Strat PU's all with the same pole orientation and some shred-light strings, "Bbbbbbwwwwoonnngggwaaarrrrblllle,..."

Chris

[DRS]

Indeed. The warbles on Strats.

I am hard pressed to get a normal-size HB to have an effect on strings over .011 to .050 or so - even if the PU's are really close.

But yeah, three Strat PU's all with the same pole orientation and some shred-light strings, "Bbbbbbwwwwoonnngggwaaarrrrblllle,..."

Chris

This is because a Gibson style humbucker has the magnet on the bottom with screws going to the top as poles while the strat style pickup has 6 individual magnets going from top to bottom. The strong magnet is much closer to the strings.

[D.G.]

I don't buy vintage guitars, only new or next to new guitars, so I really don't have to worry about rusted/stuck truss rods. I prefer my necks to have no relief, i.e. to be dead straight, and I raise the action at the bridge to reduce/remove buzzing. I hit really hard, so a higher action is necessary and relief in the neck will tend to cause buzzes.

My truss rod adjustment method scares the bejezzus out of most folks I sight down the neck, nut to bridge, then usually give about an 1/8 or so turn, flip the guitar over, brace the neck at the nut on my left knee, and the body/neck join on my right and firmly press down on the neck in the middle a few times. Then I flip the guitar strings up, brace the same way and give another couple of pushes. Sight down the neck and repeat the process till I get the adjustment where I want it. I wouldn't really recommend this method with your vintage 30's Gibson, but for a new guitar it's always worked perfectly well for me. I also figure that if a guitar can't stand this kind of adjustment it's got bigger problems that a maladjusted truss rod