The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Dear all,

    As a vintage guitar collector, I recently got into some custom archtops. While custom archtops are perfect in construction/tone and pitch consistency when out of the gate, they do not appear as open as the vintage stuff. I guess it takes hours or years of playing before they really open up and reach their true potential. What break in period does it typically take for new custom built archtops to really open up?

    Appreciate your views.

    Much thanks

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  3. #2

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    Try a ToneRite,leave it on for a few days,there will be a difference. How much of a difference? I dont know. Ive have one and had exceptional results on some guitars and marginal results at best on others. For my $ its worth trying one out.If you are looking to open up the guitar a bit give it a try.Hell ,if you have to work all day, leaving it on certainly cant hurt. This is just my 2 cents. T.O.T.A.

  4. #3

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    I have 2 archtops that were custom ordered, so I've had them from the start and watched them grow. One's from 2009 and the other is from 2011. I've heard and felt changes with each passing year. The '09 is pretty much open now. The '11 is a lot more so than when she arrived, but I'll bet she's got more to give up still.

    I also use a ToneRite on all of my acoustics, with similar results as TOTA reports (that is, mixed, but worth trying).

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by gasvictim
    Dear all,

    As a vintage guitar collector, I recently got into some custom archtops. While custom archtops are perfect in construction/tone and pitch consistency when out of the gate, they do not appear as open as the vintage stuff. I guess it takes hours or years of playing before they really open up and reach their true potential. What break in period does it typically take for new custom built archtops to really open up?

    Appreciate your views.

    Much thanks
    There are no real answers to your questions . . . only questions in response to yours, to further clarify your questions and exactly what it is you're looking for.

    <<< While custom arch tops are perfect in construction/tone and pitch consistency >>>

    Really?? "Perfect" is a very big word. Very subjective too. Perfect to whom?

    <<< when out of the gate they do not appear as open as the vintage stuff >>>

    How would you accurately describe "open"? What is your definition of vintage? A 30 year old guitar was made in 1982. Is that vintage to you?

    <<< I guess it takes hours or years before they open up and reach their true potential >>>

    Who determines what their true potential actually is? Who actually knows the true potential of any crafted instrument?

    <<< What break in period does it typically take for new custom built arch tops to really open up?? >>>

    Good Lord!!! Where do I start?? Which arch tops? Laminated or carved? Sitka spruce or Engleman? X braced or parallel? Inset pups or floaters? 16" . .17" 18" or 19"??? Depth? True and pure nitro cel laq . . or the shit with plastisizers blended in to prevent crazing? Relative humidity in the area where the guitar is kept?? Dry or humid?? How well was the wood dried before carving? HOW . . was the wood dried before carving . . naturally storage or kiln dried?? How thick/thin was the carve of the top? Was it tap tuned? Was the luthier whistling, humming or singing as he was carving the top?? Was he wearing boxers or tighty whities when he was carving?? I could go on and on with the variables.

    If you've got a decent set of good sized stereo speakers and you listen to music frequently, keep the guitars on stands directly in front of the speakers, with the top and the sound holes facing the speakers. You'll get similar molecular movement from the sound waves of the music . . as you would from the constant vibrations of the strings when playing the guitar.

    Then, just take the improvements as they come . . and IF they come at all. It's a waste of time to wonder/worry about "how long".
    Last edited by Patrick2; 11-28-2012 at 11:04 AM.

  6. #5

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    Relax Patrick,backup and take a deep breath! Count to 20! LOL!!!!

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Top of the Arch!
    Relax Patrick,backup and take a deep breath! Count to 20! LOL!!!!
    LOLOLOLOL . . . a little intense . . . huh?? Well . . as Gov Rick Perry once said . . . . . . "OOPS!!"

  8. #7

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    The answer is: As Long As It Takes.

    There is no acceleration for the sheer good old aging that comes from the passing of time. Just play it and it will reveal its colors in time. Patience is key, grasshopper.

    *Yeah, I read about placing your git in front of the loudspeaker trick. Who knows whether it works but doesn't hurt, does it? Make sure that they are some bespoke sh$t like a pair of Magneplanars MG20.7 or Wilson Audio Maxx 3. Cheap speakers give out cheap frequencies that will excite and imbue the fibers of your custom archtop with all the wrong molecular energies. So, stow your Genius in the White Coat Polk Audios away.

  9. #8

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    I've been curious about this same thing. I'm guessing that this is roughly analogous to flat tops. Does it apply mostly to solid sitka spruce tops? I've watched flat tops open up over months and years and it's actually kind of gratifying. And yes, many variables and some people believe it's in your head but I don't think so. Too much difference and everyone describes it the same: the guitar 'opens up'. Wouldn't think this would apply to maple tops in the same way and not at all to laminates, but that is purely speculative.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spook410
    I've been curious about this same thing. I'm guessing that this is roughly analogous to flat tops. Does it apply mostly to solid sitka spruce tops? I've watched flat tops open up over months and years and it's actually kind of gratifying. And yes, many variables and some people believe it's in your head but I don't think so. Too much difference and everyone describes it the same: the guitar 'opens up'. Wouldn't think this would apply to maple tops in the same way and not at all to laminates, but that is purely speculative.
    I believe that this is one of those actions and reactions of matter, that can be proved or disproved by genuine scientific data . . as to whether or not it really does occur. But, I doubt that any amount of testing, studying or any uber sophisticated testing/measuring equipment could ever predict, with even the least but of accuracy and/or certainty . . . when it will occur . . how long it will take to occur . . or, if a stringed instrument has actually reach it's peak in improvement.

    But, as you say . . it's really fun and exciting to experience its occurence. I too do not believe it's "in your head".

  11. #10

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    I agree this is something that may never be quantified, if proven to exist at all.

    I do break in all of my new stereo and amp speakers and always notice them "loosening up" considerably when a continuous alternating load is applied for a time. One could reasonably compare the carved top of an archtop guitar to a traditionally designed speaker cone, the "m" roll of the speaker yielding to oscillations, not unlike the re-curve of a well carved guitar.

    That said, I've subjected my new or "stiff" sounding guitars to a full day suspended in front of a blasting stereo and noted significant improvement in response afterwards. I have two favorite CDs that I always use for this purpose, and I am not going to tell you which, but I feel that content is part of the magic formula, lol.

    Whether it works or not, what's the harm?

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikeSF
    ....

    Whether it works or not, what's the harm?
    Suffering house-mates, significant other or spouse?

    How about this one: Amazon.com: XLO/Reference Test & Burn In: Xlo Reference Recordings, Various Artists: Music ?

    Used to drive my mateys crazy when I was an audiophool. I can still remember the sequence of the break-in tracks. Whooo, WHOOOO, Whoooo, WHOOOOO, Whoooo, WHOOOOO,Tzzzzzzzzzzzzz, white noise, pink noise, brown noise, black noise, sounded like car alarms all going off at the same time in the neighborhood.

    About the only thing that it broke-in was.....me.

  13. #12

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    LOL! Good one.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Suffering house-mates, significant other or spouse?

    ...

    haha, i was going to change that to, "...IF you live alone"

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    Suffering house-mates, significant other or spouse?

    How about this one: Amazon.com: XLO/Reference Test & Burn In: Xlo Reference Recordings, Various Artists: Music ?

    Used to drive my mateys crazy when I was an audiophool. I can still remember the sequence of the break-in tracks. Whooo, WHOOOO, Whoooo, WHOOOOO, Whoooo, WHOOOOO,Tzzzzzzzzzzzzz, white noise, pink noise, brown noise, black noise, sounded like car alarms all going off at the same time in the neighborhood.

    About the only thing that it broke-in was.....me.

    this looks more like something used to calibrate audio equipment. no wonder the neighbors were challenged to like you.

  16. #15

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    I have some guitars that improve with more playing. Most. But I have a Taylor 810 flattop, that seems to be great no matter how long it sits unplayed.

    Shame on me.

    I am more concerned with the aspect of not playing them. I need to play them more - or I have too many. That may well be the case - from the guitars' POV.

    I'd have to say: that each guitar (each collection of woods) will vary.

  17. #16

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    cant tell you
    i can give you my experience

    my 2002 F5 mando was barely played when i bought it in 2009
    ive been banging on it hard , almost daily, for over an hour, often 2-3 daily, -it has opened and is still opening-mandos are notorious for being tight and taking decades to really bloom

    my 06 triggs was also barely played when i got it in 2010-been banging on it as well fingerstyle, and its opening a lot in about a year and a half- i use it not only for jazz, but folk and rock and drop and open tunings -just everything i play, no switching between it and my martin or other guitars that i own-i use it a lot

    my very old martin, which sometimes i dont play for some time, closes and reopens within about 2-3 weeks of daily playing-

    the stereo speaker method by patrick does apparently help to loosen the instrument while not being played

    otoh......captain bringdown here...i had an older D-41 which never opened-not after 5 years , with heavy and medium strings and lots of playing
    was tight when built and stayed that way, despite builder perfect woods-ie top grain so tight you could barely see it -and so tight it never let loose

    to some extent, i believe that as the woods season-ie dry out and harden even more, presuming they are typical, and either kiln dried or seasoned about 2-3 years at best, at the time of construction and fiinishing, time may help with the wood getting a bit more bounce

    crudely put and simple to a point of dismissal-play the hell out of it, especially if you have a bevy of beauties at hand over which you spread and bestow your 'love and attention'-
    i find that the daily and vigorous playing seems to really pay off in about 2 years
    Last edited by stevedenver; 11-29-2012 at 02:30 PM.

  18. #17

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    Here's another possibility. Maybe solid wood guitars dry out and get more resonant with age even if you don't play them. If this is true, solid wood guitars will get better as you play them because they are also getting older and drying out more. Don't shoot me. I love older guitars because they sound great and because they are lighter and more resonant than their modern counterparts. Physics of dessication is certainly a part. Not sure how significant playing the guitar is relatively. Am sure I'll get banned for this post.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by DC Ron
    Here's another possibility. Maybe solid wood guitars dry out and get more resonant with age even if you don't play them. If this is true, solid wood guitars will get better as you play them because they are also getting older and drying out more. Don't shoot me. I love older guitars because they sound great and because they are lighter and more resonant than their modern counterparts. Physics of dessication is certainly a part. Not sure how significant playing the guitar is relatively. Am sure I'll get banned for this post.
    So what's wrong with getting banned?? Been there . . done that! It actually caused me to find this place . . . a better fit for me.

    But, your observations are, in my opinion astute and dead nuts on. There are reasons a '59 burst sounds like it does. It's not at all magic. It has to do with the aging of the entire guitar . . . including the wood. Similar with arch tops. It's too bad that PTChristopher got pissed off and took a hiatus from posting. (what a wuss . . . Hi Chris!!)He has commented more than once . . with eloquence and considerable knowledge on how the molecular structure of wood reacts in most conditions . . . including aging.

  20. #19

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    Thx Patrick. Know this is not black and white. Still hope I don't get banned, your positive experience notwithstanding...

  21. #20

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    Well spruce will age and the sound colour for the better over a very long time. If you want the final sound, day one, go for cedar tops.

    If you think about it logically, those old violins have been played since the 1600s and as most have been professional instruments (reaches for calculator) lets say they are played for an average of 4 hours every day - that's 4x365xsay350 years = 58 years of continual playing!!!

    In my experience you will hear a big difference in the first three to four years - after that its changing at quite a slow pace. But this is why old instruments are so sought afterr if they are constructed in such a way that time and playing counts. Time doesn't really count for cedar tops, ply tops, and anything built on a tight budget.

    Get a cedar top guitar and you know what it is on day one.

  22. #21

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    I find that even my Cedar archtop gets stiff if I don't play it for a while and puts out less volume. If I play it regularly it does seem to produce a fuller sound.

  23. #22
    What a shitty reply from you Patrick ...insulting in fact. THank God I never owned a heritage

    my collection is definitely better than a heritage. That includes a vintage 54 d Angelico New Yorker, a 38 d Angelico b-1,a 59 Gibson l5 and custom archtops from Lower end luthiers such as buscarino, bill comins, triggs, thorell, Andersen, victor baker, Benedetto, and ric mccurdy.

    I am outta here

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by gasvictim
    What a shitty reply from you Patrick ...insulting in fact. THank God I never owned a heritage

    my collection is definitely better than a heritage. That includes a vintage 54 d Angelico New Yorker, a 38 d Angelico b-1,a 59 Gibson l5 and custom archtops from Lower end luthiers such as buscarino, bill comins, triggs, thorell, Andersen, victor baker, Benedetto, and ric mccurdy.

    I am outta here
    Zombie threads are great. We get to go back in time and bring them back to life. Pick at old wounds. Open them up and pour salt in. Cool.
    As far as break in, on my guitars, up to 4 years of almost day to day improvement to plateau, on a flat top, it can mature in days or weeks. This has always been an issue, and not one with a simple answer albeit initialized from a simple question.
    Stradivarius built good violins, everyone knows that. During his lifetime and the lifetime of his children, they never heard how great. That's the truth. Arch tops have a break in period of years when they are built with certain arches. Some break in early, burn out early, some break in slow, stay good a long time, some never do.
    Breaking in an instrument through a sound box tends to be short to medium term because the micro fractures in the wood resins will return to their initial resting state over time. Play it a lot and love what it can do.
    David

  25. #24

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    Forgetaboutallthat

    Set your guitar up as follows...

    mute all strings ezcept the d with cotton put it and in a stand turn on amp
    hit the d and increase volume till the string vibrates by itself and lower volume
    just to keep the string vibrating. come back in 2weeks


    Ur done !!! :-)

    Better still play till u hurt for a couple of months the guitar AND you will sound a whole lot better!!!

  26. #25

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    I believe that the most significant improvements I get in a guitar over time are from two sources:

    1) I get more comfortable playing it and as a result I get better at exploiting the nuances of the instrument

    2) I learn what has to be done to adapt the guitar to my playing style and have it set up accordingly

    Those will improve the musical value of the instrument more than any changes in the wood of the guitar. The guitar may improve over time but not by nearly by as much as my relationship with the guitar does (in the same way that my wife may or may not have really grown more beautiful over the last twenty years, but she certainly has to me).
    Last edited by Jim Soloway; 01-22-2015 at 12:49 PM.