Floating Pickups

[Klatu]

The pickup that came with my Eastman isn't very balanced. In fact, it's so far off that I think there might be something structurally wrong with the pickup.

If any of you have had good experiences with aftermarket floating pickups, I'd appreciate some reviews. Of course, I also want to hear of any floating debacles.

[amusiathread]

Have you tried adjusting the polepieces?

[PTChristopher]

If you can describe what you hear vs. what you want to hear that will really help to get responses that will help you in the direction you want to go, in my opinion.

Of course there will be the requisite love for the KA "12 pole" and the custom PUs wound by Al Nicomagnet ("Just tell Al what you want and he will build it for you,... somehow.").

But if these solutions sound even more like what you do not want,...

Is the sound unbalanced from one string to the next, then first question is what strings do you use. Not because you are at fault, but because with no string info, it is hard to send you in the right direction.

If the sound is unbalanced over the frequency range of the guitar, can you describe how it is unbalanced?

All in my opinion.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

And I really wish the Benedetto S6 did not have such big divots cut out of the blades under the B string.

The PU sounds fantastic except for the weak B response unless the PU is set VERY far from the strings.

In my opinion.

Chris

[Klatu]

Have you tried adjusting the polepieces?

I have adjusted the pieces as far as they'll go, and while the balance is far better than it was, it still isn't ideal

If you can describe what you hear vs. what you want to hear that will really help to get responses that will help you in the direction you want to go, in my opinion.

Of course there will be the requisite love for the KA "12 pole" and the custom PUs wound by Al Nicomagnet ("Just tell Al what you want and he will build it for you,... somehow.").

But if these solutions sound even more like what you do not want,...

Is the sound unbalanced from one string to the next, then first question is what strings do you use. Not because you are at fault, but because with no string info, it is hard to send you in the right direction.

If the sound is unbalanced over the frequency range of the guitar, can you describe how it is unbalanced?

All in my opinion.
Chris

Chris,

You don't have to mention that it's "just your opinion". You opinion is probably the most respected on this forum when it comes to questions of lutherie and general repair.

Anyhow, what I hear is high volume coming from the high E and B strings, and a dramatic fall off in volume from the rest of the strings (the wound ones). In my experience, this is the opposite from what I've come to expect.

I have lowered the pole pieces on the top strings a good bit below the top of the pickup and have raised the other pole pieces to the point where they make contact with the string if I finger the highest fret. In other words, I have no more room to manipulate the pieces in either direction.

The string that produces the least volume is the low E, which is curious since the low E is typically the problematic high volume string on my other archtops.

Again, I thank all of you for your help.

[kris]

Floating pickups-.......
A lot of jazz guitar players what to sound fat and warm but floating pickups are not as standard humbuckers.
I think all floating pickups are more to natural acoustic sound.
This is my expierience.

[rpguitar]

Well, floaters are "less electric" sounding than mounted pups, but they hardly produce "natural acoustic" sound. This is very obvious to me because I use a looping pedal, and the blended sound I hear when I play is very different than the pickup-only sound that comes out of the amp when I press the loop button. A floater is still very much a magnetic pickup that does not capture the real acoustic tone very well.

That said, I've played the Eastman and Korean D'Angelico J.Smith copies, the K.A. 12 pole, the K.A. Slimbucker, the Gibson BJB, and the DeArmond FHC and Rhythm Chief models. I greatly prefer the adjustable ones, which excludes the BJB, DeArmond FHC, and K.A. Slimbucker. This is mainly because pickup height and string balance are important to me, not only to compensate for different string materials, but also just for tweaking the general tonal response.

From a setup perspective, floating pickups are a huge pain in the butt. They all install differently and have different shapes and depths. They hang precariously from pickguards. They require pickguard cutouts, which always means a dilemma (expense, hassle) about whether to get a separate 'guard to preserve the instrument's originality. They have to be wired in such a way that nothing touches the top or is unsightly.

Once I settle on a floater, I prefer to have them screwed onto the neck with a discreet bracket. It is far more stable and reliable. The Johnny Smith and some K.A. pickups allow for this, as do the DeArmonds if you can find the rare-as-hell short neck rod.

Tonally, the K.A. 12 pole, BJB, and Rhythm Chief are my favorites. I've got an old school Gibson Johnny Smith coming on a guitar that I'm waiting to receive, so I'll hopefully have another data point soon.

[bluefonia]

Klatu, there might be something with the balance on the Eastman pu´s in general.
As far as I know many of the Eastman pu´s - both floaters and build ins - are K.A. designs, probably pretty cheep chinese or koreaen builds.

I got a new Eastman AR403 some months ago. This model has not a floater but a build in humbucker. But I had the same balance issues as you have with the first and second string. I too adjusted the poles which helped some but in the end I changed the pu to a Biltoft HCC (put in new pots and wiring as well). Since then I`ve had no problems.

So maybe you need to get another pu in order to get the balance you want.

[amusiathread]

Yeah, sounds like the pickup might be a dud. The only time I've experienced what you're talking about is with bronze acoustic strings (they're a real paiwhen used with magnetic pickups). Are you using flatwounds? If so, I might try roundwounds just for contrast, to see if that affects the balance problem.

[jdaguitar2]

Kent Armstrong is good stuff. I think that floating pickups in general have a brighter tone (more high Hz response) and quieter (in terms of volume) character than the fatter sounding and slightly louder humbuckers in, for example, an ES-175.

[bluefonia]

Kent Armstrong is good stuff.

Yes, I guess Ken Armstrong is good stuff if made by K.A. himself or his son, but Ken Armstrong DESIGN pu`s, which are common in many Eastmans and other low to mid-priced archtops, are mostly mass products made in the far east and can be pretty mediocre in my experience.

[Socalbill]

My Easman 805CE came with a floater with the same balance issues. When I got it, it was strung with acoustic strings. When I switched to nickel strings the pu balance between the E/B strings and the rest was much improved. I have since switched back to phosphor bronze strings on this guitar and I've adjusted the pole pieces on the pu, and its OK, but no where near balanced. I'm researching the real KA pups as they take this problem into account.
Bill

[Rustic]

On an Eastman Pagelli I changed the stock "Kent Armstrong" 6 pole pickup (Chinese, wound to his specs) to a 12 pole that I ordered from Kent directly and it drastically improved the sound giving it more warmth and fullness as well as more balance adjustability.

[Klatu]

On an Eastman Pagelli I changed the stock "Kent Armstrong" 6 pole pickup (Chinese, wound to his specs) to a 12 pole that I ordered from Kent directly and it drastically improved the sound giving it more warmth and fullness as well as more balance adjustability.

Did you have to cut out the pickguard to accommodate the larger pickup?

[PTChristopher]

Hi Klat',

To go from what you have to the KA "12 Pole" it is likely that you will find the new PU to be larger in the nut-to-bridge dimension, and a touch smaller in the E string to E string dimension.

So yeah, the cool kids might say a new PG, or some fairly expert mods to your current PG will be needed.

In my opinion (such as it is) I suspect that you will be very satisfied with the KA with the 12 adjustable poles. It sounds great (a bit fatter than the typical asian floater) and is quite responsive to string-to-string pole adjustments.

Setting the overall height is not so easy on such a pickup, since it involves some fixed attachments.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

I just went into the shop and checked this. The 12-pole is only about 2mm narrower (E-to-E) than the likely stock PU dimension, so you would only have a ~1mm gap (or even a bit less) on the edge of the PU and your stock PG. This is arguably enough to ignore.

You would need to extend the PU cutout down toward the bridge some, which os not all that hard. Just avoid a rotary tool direction that may tear away the PG binding and the end grain at the base of the extended cutout.

I do wish the tab on the 12-pole case was a bit bigger. But then again nobody seems to have breakaway troubles with the PU, so I am seemingly too conservative (kind of a timely joke,...).

Chris

[2bornot2bop]

I've been enamored with the 12 pole K.A. routed that comes stock on all Eastman Pisano's. So much so, that I feel its one of that guitars greatest strengths. The Seymore Duncan Seth Lover SH-55 hb's are the best I've heard in an archtop I owned. Those 55's are the real deal if you're searching for a routed hb. It's a shame one can't buy a floater that would perform like that 55.

[Klatu]

I'd love to put that 12 pole floater in my archtop. The trouble is that there is a terrible shortage of qualified repairmen in Miami. I wouldn't trust some of the guys down here to change my strings.

[PTChristopher]

The tricky part is matching the PG underside to the PU tab, both for overall height and angle (in 2 planes).

Not hard, but not to be trusted to a hack either.

Unfortunately, you can not just send the PU and PG somewhere. You really need to mount the whole thing to the guitar to get it optimized.

Still in my opinion.

Chris

[Spook410]

- I haven't heard anyone say they really like the Korean KA pickups. Not sure what the issue is. Just magnets and wire, right?
- Drilling/tapping is recommended for the KA 12 pole and I do wish the tab was longer. Someone who has done a lot of these might glue it I suppose.
- You'll probably want to replace the pots as well. I ended up liking the Schatten thumbwheels.
- To me, the KA complements the acoustic sound of the guitar better than I expected so I'm happy.
- To Chris' point, this being my first try, it took me several iterations to get the geometry right. Not hard, but harder than it looks.

[Rustic]

Yes, you have to slightly cut out the pickguard for the 12 pole to fit. As discussed above, it is a harrowing experience - not the cut out but getting the angles right for mounting the new one. We used epoxy to mount the new one on the old pickguard but it required a small glue-joint shim to get the angle right. We cut the shim from an old credit card, which seemed symbolic given the amount of resources we've all put into our equipment over the years!

[musicafterhours]

I'm considering doing the 5th Avenue with a Kent Armstrong. The example on youtube is pretty convincing..
It looks like the parts are all sold piece meal.
The pickup
The pots
The jack.

If I want a simple setup only modifying the pickguard, Can someone recomend a parts list and likely install cost?
(I'm not real handy)

If anyone wants to recommend alternative humbuckers or kits, I am looking for the more mellow, thicker sound sorta like Joe Pass or Wes so I think the p-90 on the Kingpin will be too bright.

Thanks,
Dave

[Mark M.]

I find floaters to be more bright in general than built-in pickups. The sound you are describing comes from built-in humbuckers. Don't get me wrong. I love the sound of floaters. But, they don't tend to produce a "mellow, thick" sound to my ears.

[musicafterhours]

Yeah you are right. I've listened to the comparisons on youtube and am ok with the slightly brighter sound of the floating humbucker. Still better than the mounted p90 to my ears.

[Patrick2]

I too agree with Mark M. If you're looking for the more mellow tone, ala Joe Pass and Wes . . then don't mess with your 5th Ave. Leave it as it is . . for what it is. Buy a guitar with an inset pup.