Neck Relief

[lindydanny]

This is one for the luthiers...

I've got a fifteen year old Alvarez dreadnought style acoustic. It has a lot of sentimental value to me because it was the first guitar I ever played. For about two years it has sat out of the case in the corner with no tension on the five strings it had left. Last night, I felt the urge to string it back up.

After I did so, I noticed again the problem that made me put it in the corner in the first place: the neck. I can't say the neck is in good or bad shape. It definitely needs fretwork, but not badly. Mostly, there is just some horrible action going on from fret 7 and on. I did completely loosen the truss rod before I strung it up in hopes that its natural shape would be better than its old. Unfortunately not.

I'd like to keep the guitar for the simple fact that it has a beautiful tone for such an inexpensive instrument (original retail was $300). I'd be willing to even put a little money into her to keep it around for another fifteen years (just don't tell my wife I said that; she thinks I want to sell it).

Any pointers?

~DB

P.S.: I am considering replacing the saddle and nut to help with the action, but I'm not convinced that is the issue.

[billkath]

Here's what I'd do-
1/ Lubricate the nut and give it a few turns to tighten it-but not fully tighten it.

2/ Restring and tune to concert pitch and leave for a day.

3/ Next day-retune to concert pitch-place a capo on the first fret. Fret on the last fret of the bass E.
Check the gap at fret 8 by eye-tighten the truss rod nut until there is a very slight gap there.

Leave for a day.

4/Repeat step 3.


on the third day-set the gap so that it is about the thickness of a playing card.

Once that's out of the way, time to do the nut and bridge.

[SamBooka]

Did you loosen the truss rod or tighten it?

[lindydanny]

Billkath, thanks, I'll try that out before I go any further.

Sam, I had to loosen it quite a bit. Since I have owned it, the guitar has always had this action "problem" and it has never had a truss rod adjustment. When I loosened the nut, it was really, really tight but movable. Now, it is snug, but not tight. (So, Bill's method is ready for step 3 basically...)

~DB

[spiral]

The action problem may have nothing to do with the truss rod. The truss rod adds tension to the neck to counteract the tension of the strings. What Bill described is exactly what you should do to check how much tension should be on the rod but may be unrelated to the action. Once you follow Bill's directions you should be in the ballpark of proper tension.

How tight or loose the nut is is irrelevant to the proper amount of tension. It isn't like a nut and bolt that gets fastened down: you can way over-tighten or over-loosen the nut on the truss rod. The correct tension is determined by Bill's directions.

Once you get the tension close, the action should be pretty good, if it isn't you need to start looking at the pitch of the neck, and the height of the bridge. If the bridge is properly adjusted and the strings have the correct break angle, the neck may need to be reset.

[lindydanny]

So, I went at it last night and I need to ask, before I adjust the tension with the guitar capoed and fretted last fret on "E", should the string be touching the 8th string or above it already.

Mine is above it already. So, should I be loosening or tightening at that point?

~DB

[billkath]

It should be above it.

There should be a slight gap between the bottom of the string and the top of fret 8. Remember-you need to capo on the first fret and depress the 6th string at the last fret. The idea is that the string is thus acting like a straight edge. You'll look all along the fretboard and hopefully none of the middle frets will actually touch the string bottom. You'll measure the distance between the 8th fret and the bottom of the string. The exact distance depends on how much relief you like, but about the width of a playing card will get yoiu in the ball park.
You need to set up a guitar in a set order. Setting the truss right is the first step.

Very important-All measurements will be taken in the playing position. If the guitar is on it's back gravity will affect it-weight of the neck, etc.

[Little Jay]

Check here: Guitar Set Up | Adjust Action | Easier To Play Better Tone

and here: http://www.fretnotguitarrepair.com/r.../truss-rod.php

Adjusting neck relief is definately not the way to set your action (=string height), although it does influence it.
But you have to adjust neck relief first, and then take measures for your action.

[billkath]

Mine is above it already. So, should I be loosening or tightening at that point?

~DB

The more you tighten the nut, the tighter the trussrod and the straighter the neck. Now some electric guitars can get away with a perfectly flat neck, but in general moist guitars require some relief-some distance for the strings to vibrate. So-if the gap between fret 8 and the bottom of the string (when capo'd and depressed at last fret) is too big-tighten the nut., Too little-loosen the nut. A half turn is a LOT, so go easy, and don't ever force it.

[Dad3353]

Good afternoon, lindydanny...

So, I went at it last night and I need to ask, before I adjust the tension with the guitar capoed and fretted last fret on "E", should the string be touching the 8th string or above it already.

Mine is above it already. So, should I be loosening or tightening at that point?

~DB

I googled 'guitar truss rod adjustment photo', this is the first that came up; there are others...

Guitar Truss Rod Adjustment

...just to be clear about where we are here.
From your description (truss rod completely relaxed, but '8th' touching already...), it seems as if the neck is 'back-bowed'. Normally, without tightening the rod, the string tension should rather make a forward bow (sometimes called 'relief'...). The rod, being tightened, will 'encourage' the neck to bow less, until the correct 'relief' is obtained. Tightening too much will pull the neck to the 'back-bow' position, and the guitar becomes unplayable.
If your neck is already 'back-bowed', even with the rod loosened off completely, then the instrument will need some quite serious 'tech' attention, imho.
Hope this helps; I may have mis-understood your post (indeed, I hope so, for the sake of your guitar...).

[lindydanny]

Okay, let me start from the beginning to clarify...

With no tension on the truss rod, there is about a 1/8 inch gap between the string and the eighth fret. This is with the capo on the first and me fingering the last.

So, I'm assuming that I need to adjust the neck so that there is less relief. Am I correct? If so, is that tightening or loosening the truss?

~DB

[spiral]

So, I'm assuming that I need to adjust the neck so that there is less relief. Am I correct? If so, is that tightening or loosening the truss?

Correct. It means the strings are bending the neck forward, so you need to put tension in the truss rod to straighten out the neck. With the guitar tuned to pitch the neck should be nearly flat, with just a slight bit of relief to allow for the vibrating strings and changes in environment.

There were some good links posted above with visual examples of what it should and shouldn't look like. Did you read them? Just seeing the examples will go a long way to understanding what you are adjusting and why.

[lindydanny]

Is it at all possible (and how would I deal with it) that the neck is pulled forward with no tension on the strings?

~DB

[billkath]

NO.
You just have too much relief.
So-capo on the first, fret the last and tighten the nut till there is only a sliver of daylight between the 8th and string.
Don't try to 2nd guess yourself. To diagnose correctly means going through all the steps, and in the correct order.
We'll all run through the steps, and the next steps with you. But nothing can be done till you do this first step correctly.

[billkath]

After this-we'll do nut height, then saddle height. No intonation, which would normally be next, as this is an acoustic. Then we can diagnose high frets, or if you need a reset of the neck.

[jazzbow]

Is it at all possible (and how would I deal with it) that the neck is pulled forward with no tension on the strings?

~DB

Neck relief is basically controlled forward pull. Discussing neck adjustments online without actually seeing your guitar is problematic at the very least. Please take your prized guitar to a reputable tech or luthier to check it out. If you want to learn how to set up guitars and don't want to wreck your nice guitars then check the accompanying link and buy a cheapy guitar and practice on that.
Good luck with your endeavors.

How to Make Your Electric Guitar Play Great! Guitar Player Book: Amazon.co.uk: Dan Erlewine: Musical Instruments