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I got a custom telecaster with a neck dive issue. Current tuners are Gotoh Locking Vintage Oval Knob 6-In-Line Tuners which are pretty light. I play with a suede strap.
One option would be to add a weight to the body but the guitar is heavy already. So I am thinking of asking a tech to carve out some material from the the back of the headstock.
WDYT?
I wonder whether this can have an effect on tone / intonation / sustain.
Ll.
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01-06-2025 10:40 PM
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I doubt you can get enough wood out of the headstock for it to matter. Maybe try moving the strap button. Or just sell it.
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I agree about not being able to get enough material out of the headstock to matter. There's not much "extra" headstock on a Tele neck.
Plus I wonder whether removing material from the headstock would weaken it enough to break (eventually).
Consider swapping the Tele body for a Strat or Jazzmaster body. The difference in body geometry likely would take care of the neck dive.
Here are the weights of a few sets of tuners.
From Tuner weight reference page. | The Les Paul Forum:
Grover Gold: 9.6 oz
Grover Nickel: 9.9 oz
Kluson strip: 4.9 oz
Wilkinson Mini nickel: 6 7/8 oz
Kluson Single Line replica by Fender: 4 3/4 oz
Kluson Replica Ping Works: 5 1/4 oz
Grover Locking Mini nickel: 7 5/8 oz
Grover Locking Chrome: 10 3/8 oz <-- these were the only locking tuners in this list. Your tuners might not be as lightweight as you believe.
Gotoh Replica Kluson nickel: 5 7/8 oz
Schaller chrome, from G&L 80s-90s: 7 1/8 oz
Gotoh has a specs page at Guitar Machine Heads アーカイブ - G-GOTOH with specs for many of their tuners - maybe you can find yours here to find out their weight.Last edited by dconeill; 01-07-2025 at 05:28 AM.
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No offense, but it's the dumbest idea i've ever heard. Change the tuners, change the neck, dump the whole thing get a new one, live with it like SG players do... Those are the choices.
and how come if the guitar is heavy it has a neck dive anyway? Heavy means the body is heavy, wtf?
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My current tuners weigh 0.3530 lbs (0.16 kg), which is less than the lightest on dconeil list. The neck is a custom from Warmoth and, although built in a tele-style, does have a meatier headstock that allows for a pocket which should not hinder with structural stability. It is made in hard maple, but I am also concerned that material won't be enough (accounting for density, I can get 10-15g prob).
The safest option would be to add a fishing weight to the strap although I won't welcome the increase weight....
Ll.
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0.15kg is 5.643834oz. So, not less than anything on the list. Helps to use the right unit measurement to compare.
So you could find an oz or so in new tuners, but unless it's a 70's strat headstock, there isn't enough wood to get 10-15g, let alone preserve the headstock's structural integrity.
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Good to know, a note to myself, never buy a Warmoth neck! lol. Sounds like it weights a ton!
Originally Posted by Llewlyn
I have Allparts necks and they are not heavy at all, just normal tele necks never had the neck dive issue.
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I actually quite like the Warmoth neck, although you could be smarter than me in the wood choice for the shaft.
I found a dude on YouTube who seemed to have made my same mistake and found a fix lol (got rid of the Warmoth neck). Like this chap, I have a chambered body bc I use the tele for jazz.
Before trashing the neck I am still tempted to carve a pocket.... doesn't sound like the worse idea ever if the alternative solution is to get rid of the neck.
Or I could attach a helium balloon to the headstock.
Ll.Last edited by Llewlyn; 01-07-2025 at 02:05 PM.
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Have you got a PAF humbucker in the neck position? I have a Telecaster that had neck dive; it has a semihollow body rather than chambered, so it is *very* light. The neck was maple/rosewood with 1 3/4" nut, so it was a fairly massive chunk of wood. Swapping the heavy neck humbucker for a lighter singlecoil sized pickup in that position alleviated much of the neck dive- a stacked humbucker (Wilde L280TN). Then I took that neck and put it on a different guitar with a heavier body where it balances better.
I replaced the neck with a roasted maple Gibson scale conversion neck from Warmoth- much lighter neck and shorter so the lever arm is not as long and that solved the neck dive problem. It also sounds better for jazz with the shorter scale, IMHO. Subsequently, I put Wilde L90 pickups in it just last week; these are lighter than a typical PAF and did not upset the balance of the guitar. And they sound better to my ears than any PAF I've used previously.
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That's such a helpful reply!!!
Yes - I do use a PAF in the neck position, it's the Modern PAF by Lin Frailin. I like it very much but I may consider swapping it given what you said. I didn't expect it to play a significant role, given that the pickup is close to the center of mass of the guitar.
Actually, before touching the pickup, I could probably just order a new neck with Gibson scale and lighter woods see how it affects the neck dive. I didn't think about going for a shorter scale but that makes so much sense.
Ll.
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Yes, a conversion to short scale is a good proposal but it will also change the playability and feel.
Further of importance is the front strap button position. On a tele this is at 15-16th fret where a strat it is near 12th fret.
You could also consider an arm or bracket to "artificially" move the position of the button towards the headstock. I have seen this executed mainly on electric basses as some of these have small light bodies.
Is it a thinline (hollow) body?
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just an extra thought
how much wood are you expecting
to remove from the headstock ?
could you simulate the effect of that
wood removal by removing a single tuner
and weighing it separately
then another if necessary
and on ….
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but personally , yes I would get another neck
tele’s don’t dive normally
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I have used thick straps and kept my hand on the neck to resolve neck dive. It's more of a hassle with practicing than performing.
No one puts their strap around the headstock accept with flattops. I'm not sure why. That should eliminate neck dive also. Why did Wes do that? Why don't we do it?
Last edited by Marty Grass; 01-08-2025 at 10:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
I see your headless and raise you a body rout.
Just a moment...
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I always find that the guitar shifts around awkwardly, plus it feels like I'm pulling on the neck. I finally gave up on tying straps to the headstock and installed strap buttons on the last couple of flattops I've had (as well as my current archtop, which had only the tail-block button). I can't speak for Wes (tried asking, but he hasn't gotten back to me Originally Posted by Marty Grass
). However in general, if you do image searches of the classic archtop jazz guys, it seems like most either played sitting without a strap or added a second strap button (SFAIK, ES-175's, 350's, L5's etc. came with only one in the old days). I found one of Barney Kessel with it tied to the headstock, but pretty much everything else shows him seated without a strap.
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I don't do it because it makes the guitar go out of tune. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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Pretty awesome reply.
@Gilpy: that fix is really unique, ie I have not heard about it / seen it in my Googling. Does it really improve the instrument, esp. compared to a strap button placed at the end of the long horn?
The headless instrument is extremely appealing (not just for neck dive), but imagine that to use the proper bridge, a body modification is in order yes?
Ll.
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yes, it does improve the balance of a neck-heavy Tele. And costs nothing to try. Originally Posted by Llewlyn
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According to Chapgpt (which often gets things wrong) the 50s era L5s did not have a strap button. It was added later.
My 64 L50 did not have a strap button.
Wes played sitting, so why he used a strap is a good question.
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Prompt "Why did Wes Montgomery use a strap?" Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
ChatGPT: He wanted to look cool like Bob Dylan. Bob Dylan is the master of many styles including Jazz. We was Montgomery's top influence. Westler Mountains favorite Berb Dylong song was Must Be Santa from his 2008 religious album, "Thinkin' 'bout Sellin' Out"
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I'm fucking hilarious.
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