True oil finish on maple semi hollow top

[Jx30510]

Hi freinds.
I'm having hard time finding a proper answer, searching on the web, to what seems to me should be easy to find..

I have a late 80's Ibanez semi hollow body guitar. AC100.
It's a pretty rare MIJ which is really good.
It's kind of a hybrid build, with a full hollow body but 2 blocks of wood posts linking the top and bottom of the body. This to anchor the stop bar tailpiece. I removed and put a floating tailpiece. It's my take for an Epiphone Casino

The top is laminated maple routed for 2 humbuckers. The "bracing" is exactly like on a Gibson ES330, with a thin block glued to the top going from the neck to the back of where the bridge pick-up sits.

Well this not very important for my main question, it's just to give information on the guitar itself.

The guitar sounds really good, the playability is top notch. I've had this guitar for a long time but just hate the horrible reddish to yellow sunburst. I've being back and forth wanting to sand and refinish the top since I've owned it, and have finally took the plunge.
I've already sanded once an 80's Washburn J6 hollowbody (think laminate L5 copy) and it was a nightmare to do.. the polycoat was hard, and never went to bare wood, stopped at the primer, (or sealer ?).

Now I 've already almost finished sanding down the top of the Ibanez . The poly was much thinner and the sealer is quite easy to sand down (well it's not that easy, and I have more experience today with woodwork).
Sorry for the long story, but I prefer going to as much details as possible.

So my aim is to finish the top in Natural, and going the simplest way. It's not a guitar of much value, and don't plan to over cherrish it. I'm pretty careful with my guitars, but I don't want a rock solid finish. I wouldn't mind it wear and ding at all ! I just want it to look nice and to be well protected.

In my mind, true oil would be ok ? I know how to handle it, I've already done it on a maple neck (that Washburn) and it's been holding for almost a decade now.

Would you think I could use true oil on a very carefully sanded maple top?
Or would you have other suggestions ? I'm really not ready to do nitro finish, I feel insecure with the chemicals and complexity of the process (maybe I'm wrong?)

Thanks very much in advance for reading the long post, if you've made it

[Jx30510]

Here is a link to the guitar
AC100 (1988–1989) | Ibanez Wiki | Fandom

[Jx30510]

And here is the work in progress


It looks quite ugly, but the maple will be very nice when finished, a few birds eyes here and there

[sgosnell]

I like Tru-Oil as a finish. Done properly, it dries hard but is easy enough to repair or even refinish. I'm somewhat surprised that more people don't use it, given the toxicity of nitrocellulose vapor.

[Jx30510]

Thanks.
That's definately what I'm leaning towads to. So no prep on the wood other than really careful sanding ? I'm planning going up to 800 grit.
I've finally found information on acoustic guitar forums (why didn't I think of going there before... )
Some seem to go to 320 and be fine, others 2000.. and being bit OCD
But from what I 've read true oil should be nice.
It's a laminate hollow thinline, and not even floating bridge.. I'd be maybe a bit more concerned if so, that it might get stuck on the top after a certain time of string pressure. True oil can be sticky for a long time to touch, and the full curing wait would be longer I suppose..
Any little details and advices on the process ?

[Bobby Timmons]

My tidbit of advice is don't skip to fine grits until you've taken out all the scratches and imperfections. I used to sand surfboards professionally. So you don't unnecessarily use too heavy of a grit, but don't use too light of a grit either thinking it will smooth it out. To start on that I would use 120 to be conservative or 80 to be aggressive. Definitely not 150 or over. Once you have the deep imperfections sanded out then you can move to 180. 180 is the point where I like to have the surface absolutely perfect with no deep scratches or imperfections before I more on. Then it's just going through the grits and taking out the scratches from the previous paper to arrive at your desired finish. 220, 320, 400 etc. Don't sleep on 320. It's a really nice feeling satin finish. But if you want it finer than that there's nothing wrong.

[Jx30510]

Thanks for the advice. So if I understand well you suggest to be very progressive in the sanding process, like not going from 80 to 150 at once ?
For now I'm still at 80 to take all that yellowish stuff to the point that the wood is really white.
When I'll be there your advice it to go in small steps of like 80 to 120 to 150 to 180. Then from 300 to 400 and finally to 600 or 800. And the wood will be well preped to recieve the finish ?
Sorry if I 'm maybe repeating exactly what you just explained, but I prefer to ask twice

[Jx30510]

And, to add if I understand well, up to 320 is fine if the sanding has been well executed, progressivly, from 80 to 320? Over that would be kind of OCD?

[sgosnell]

To avoid stickiness and get quicker curing, use many very thin coats. You do not want to put on a thick glob of oil and just allow it to dry. Very thin coats, rubbed well, is the way to go. I have a guitar with a mahogany neck that was poorly refinished, and the neck was a mess. Using many coats, with very fine wood dust from the sanding as a grain filler, worked for me, and I really can't tell any difference from the body, which is nitro. On a maple body, you won't need any filler, just many thin coats of oil, allowed to dry for awhile between coats. It's not a one-day process, be patient.

For sanding, do use progressive grits, but be judicious in how much sanding you actually do. With wood, it's not necessary to sand hard nor deeply, once you get to bare wood. This is likely a laminate, and sanding through the top lam will make you sad.

[Bobby Timmons]

Thanks for the advice.

You're welcome.

So if I understand well you suggest to be very progressive in the sanding process, like not going from 80 to 150 at once? For now I'm still at 80 to take all that yellowish stuff to the point that the wood is really white. When I'll be there your advice it to go in small steps of like 80 to 120 to 150 to 180. Then from 300 to 400 and finally to 600 or 800. And the wood will be well preped to receive the finish? Sorry if I'm maybe repeating exactly what you just explained, but I prefer to ask twice.

Yes. You don't have to be very progressive, but you do want to be sensible about being progressive. Like for example if you had those big gouges in the picture, you wouldn't want to go to 320 because it would make most of the surface feel smooth, but then then it wouldn't cut enough to remove the deep surface imperfections.

That's good that you're starting with 80. Most people freak out and think they have to use the finest paper possible.

The idea is that you get the bulk of the work done with the paper that is needed for rough removal, then once you're mostly there you can bump up to the next one for still some material removal but to start getting finer. Like 80 for the deep gouges, then when it's mostly there and it's only light marks and scratches go to 120, then when that's mostly there and it's only final small marks and scratches go to 180 for final clean smooth surface finish. With around 180 or 220 you want to do your final smoothing where there are absolutely no scratches or marks and the entire surface is smooth and has been brought to that grit. Then you can just go through the fine paper grits to bring it to your desired finish.

And, to add if I understand well, up to 320 is fine if the sanding has been well executed, progressively, from 80 to 320?

Yes. Up to 320 only is fine if the sanding has been well executed and it has been brought completely to that finish. It feels really nice, a satin finish.

Over that would be kind of OCD?

But no it's not OCD to go further. It's up to you what you prefer. 180 and 220 feels soft but with still a slight texture to it, 320 is quite soft with a satin texture to it, 400 feels very soft and fine, and 600 and up feels extremely soft and fine. Above 600 or 800 would be OCD.

[Jx30510]

Thanks very much guys, this is a lot of very clear information here.
Yes, I found out 80 is the minimum to hit that poly orange stuff that sits on the wood.
I can actually hear it when I'm atteigning the wood. The rugged sound becomes smoother, there is the wood.
Yes Snogell, I'm trying my best not sanding to the point I'll hit the 2nd layer of the plywood. This is the most difficult task to me, I'm not that stressed by the finishing part..
But I'd be quite upset if that should happen. There's no way to really know where the 2nd layer is..
I'll follow Bobby's advice, and be careful not overdoing the sanding.
All of this is a question of patience and carefulness.
I've also learned that with home paint jobs .. The more you hurry and goof up the prep, the worst the result. That's the thing we call experience, I think (I won't say age.. but )

Will the maple wood grain lift up when the first finish coat will be applied (moreover if it's very thin)?
In that case would you advise maybe 120 grit to cut the wood fiber lifting ?

[lammie200]

As pointed out thin coats of TruOil is what you need to do. I have done it many times and it is a great product meant for gunstocks which need to endure outside conditions. It is durable and easy to repair. I use a felt staining pad and put the TruOil on it, not the guitar surface. Rub it on and wipe it off. When I say rub it off I mean that literally. You don't want any excess product on the guitar to remain once you rub it off because a very thin coat will remain. 5-6 coats minimum with 24 hours between coats. Rub down with gray and then white Scotch Brite pads between coats. You can buff the final coat after about week of curing. I don't do the buffing, but after about a week in reasonably dry humidity it should be cured. Once cured it is not sticky at all. Good luck. TruOil is my go-to choice for guitar finishes.

[Bobby Timmons]

In that case would you advise maybe 120 grit to cut the wood fiber lifting ?

Yes, you can use 120, 150, 180, or 220 for medium removal smoothing.

[sgosnell]

Tru-Oil won't lift the grain, but one way to insure a smoother surface is to use water. Use a damp rag to dampen the wood surface, and some grain rise will happen. Sand that back, using the finest sandpaper you used up to that point, and you will have a very smooth surface for the oil. I don't think it's absolutely essential, but it's commonly done.

[Jx30510]

Everything is quite clear to me. I'll give you some news and images at each significant stage in my progression. I'm sure it will help others who want to give a try at such a project.
Your help has been very useful for me to go further with more confidence.

[Jx30510]

The work is in progress. It's going pretty good, still in the sanding process..
I'm exactly at the point where I really realize that Bobby's advice concerning the progression in grit between the 80 to180 is where the money is.
My advice is to work with a very bright environment, where you aren't mistaken by different angles of shade. Mark lighlty with a pencil, while progressing, the spots where you observe things are wrong : slight scratches, grainy wood, or differences in color showing there still is that orangy primer in the wood. To be the most effective, you have to often stop the sanding job, take a pause so that your eyes take a rest.. I notice that your eyes loose accuracy after about half an hour or so.
You clearly notice you missed important details that were just in front of you before taking a break.

Also, when you feel you're starting getting fed up with the task , and you KNOW you're just going too fast.. just STOP

For the finish, I'm still not sure between true oil, or wipe on French polish.

I've found some advice on another forum (a french site called Zikinf) where a guy gave me a product that is a wipe on french polish mix.
"Vernis gomme laque" or "mattine"
Just like wipe on poly, but it's made with that bug stuff.
I might start with the bug varnish to seal the surface, and finish with true oil.

[Jx30510]

This was yesterday.. at a certain point, I went to fast. You know, the thing I'm talking about in my last post

I inadvertadly sanded on the metal stud post with 80 grit.
What happened is a slight amount of metal dust got mixed in the wood grain. You can see the shaded zone at the right hand side. That's it.. This is ONE pass on the stud, just maybe 3 seconds of sanding.
I managed to take that metal dust out of the wood this morning, but it had melted in the wood grain pretty deep.
Knowing how thin the first layer of maple is, I could've f...ed up all my work just with a few seconds more..
Lesson learned.

[Heybopper]

Id be interested in seeing how this ends up. Ive stripped guitars many a time and when I was younger in the 90s I had an old Ibanez 175 copy but the finish was a horrible yellow and black sunburst. I stripped it and then took it to a Luthier who was local and he told me what to do.
I was in his basement and while he worked, I spent a week sanding that guitar all the way up to 1200 grit with his vacuum on to suck up the dust from the sand paper so it wouldn't clog up.
I tried the tru oil but I didnt like it.
Since then ive tried another couple of times usually because I thought it was doable or ive wanted a natural finish. Ive never tried spray but ive tried the truck oil again but again didnt like it. I ended up taking one to a luthier and he refinished it but even that wasn't as good as a factory finish. bottom line ive tried it 4 times and its the finish that has caused the problems.
I guess its a skill I dont have. I believe proper spray paint guns are needed, I dont think you can do it with an aerosol. Time, you have to wait days sometimes to fine sand and apply new coats. I dont know, you might have better luck than me but ill be interested to see how it goes. I saw some great vids where you can achieve stunning grains by dyeing the wood and then sanding it back some people get some stunning wood finishes, but that is what they have spent many years learning to do. Also all the sanding is time your not playing but I do wish you all the best and I really hope you can get the finish your after

[Bobby Timmons]

Watch out! I forgot to mention you also might want to use a soft sanding block. A hard block won't conform to the curvature of the top and using your hands sands unevenly. You also want to make sure to sand parallel to the contours of the surface. Pressing on random areas with your fingers sands in imperfections into the surface. I'd use 120 on a soft block to get the surface uniformly smooth from there.

soft sanding block - Google Search

[sgosnell]

My experience with Tru-Oil is different. I wouldn't consider spraying it, it's designed to be wiped on/wiped off. There is no need for days of drying, because if you use a very thin coat it dries quickly, and a new coat can be wiped on/off within hours. The secret is to use many very thin coats, not one thick coat. That will lead to less than desirable results.

[Jx30510]

If finished the sanding up to 320 grit. The surface is at this stage smooth and nice.
I'm totaly aware getting a factory style miror like finish won't be possible for me. I mean, that's not even what I want.
In my opinion that type of finish is a professionals job, with professional tools.
Spraying stuff like nitro (or even poly) is super toxic. You need costy protection, a booth, etc..
All these nitrocellulose in spray cans.. I imagine a bunch of people don't protect themselves enough and spray that thing in their basement .

Just to say, I don't even want a perfect finish. I just want the guitar to be protected and nice too look at.. I hesitated a long time to strip it because I knew it's a mess to do.

I won't spend weeks on the finish. Just the coats of true oil necessary (or whatever oil, or shellac wipe on mix), buff it to shine a little, and let it cure properly.

But today I know I'll probably never strip down a finish again. It's not really the work, it's the mess it does. That dust when sanding the poly is just nasty.

I hated the look of the finish on this guitar day one. But when I tested it in that cash converter, it was so nice to play. Then I saw the made in Japan label inside (the exact same as my 1980 AS-50,), the excellent build, and the price (200 or 300, I can't remember) .. well I'll cope with the finish

I just ordered a Seymour Duncan Seth Lover to put on the neck, and a harness.
Because of it's playability and feel, It will be a guitar I know will be one of my favorites after these mods and that home made finish.

[GuyBoden]

I've used Osmo Wood Wax in the past on solid body guitars, it's tougher than oil, it brings out the grain and can easily reapplied or removed.

You only need their smallest tin.

https://www.osmo.com/hk/finishes/int...ood-wax-finish