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  1. #1

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    My 50s/60s German archtop has too much relief or in other words, the neck's bent. It has a non adjustable rod.
    Has anyone heat clamped, compression fretted or installed an adjustable rod?
    I like the guitar a lot. TIA

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  3. #2

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    How much relief does it have? Does it have a bow with no string tension, if so how much? Is the neck bound? Has it been refretted? How are the frets now? Does the fretboard extension float? Does the extension drop off or have a hump? How is the neck angle?

    When you say it has a none adjustable rod I assume that means some sort of beam or t-bar or similar.
    Last edited by Freeman Keller; 10-05-2024 at 03:39 PM.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
    How much relief does it have? Does it have a bow with no string tension, if so how much? Is the neck bound? Has it been refretted? How are the frets now? Does the fretboard extension float? Does the extension drop off or have a hump? How is the neck angle?

    When you say it has a none adjustable rod I assume that means some sort of beam or t-bar or similar.
    Thanks. I will loosen the strings and come back with a comprehensive reply to all your questions and maybe a pic or two. Have you done the sort of work I asked about and was it successful? Cheers

  5. #4

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    Need the above ask for information. If it has some neck reinforcement like a bar that is good. Compression fretting can be done. If it has no reinforcement only wood I might think about adding steel bar if guitar worth it. Expensive unless you can do it yourself.

  6. #5

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    I have not done compression fretting or the heat-the-fretboard-and-force-it-in-shape trick. I think both are sketchy and pretty unpredictable. I have removed fretboards and replaced them, and I do build new necks.

    There are several other options that I think are a whole lot better. Obviously without the guitar in front of me I have to rely on you to be my eyes. It could be as simple as a little corrective work while doing a refret.

  7. #6

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    You could carefully clamp the neck and then pull it back to a bit more than your required relief, leave it clamped for over a week.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
    How much relief does it have? Does it have a bow with no string tension, if so how much? Is the neck bound? Has it been refretted? How are the frets now? Does the fretboard extension float? Does the extension drop off or have a hump? How is the neck angle?

    When you say it has a none adjustable rod I assume that means some sort of beam or t-bar or similar.
    Hi. I've done some checks.
    The relief with strings to pitch on low e side:
    When measuring half way between 1st and 14th 0.026".
    Half way between 1st and 21st 0.026".
    With strings off: roughly 0.020".
    Unbound neck.
    Original frets.
    Frets OK.
    Floating extension. Could be shaved.
    Looks like neck has bent a bit at
    the heal.
    Good neck angle.
    Heal block looks solid.
    I'd like to use heavier strings than the 11s that are on it now.
    There is a steel rod which looks to be about 5mm square and solid.
    Can't quite work out why it has had a TRC if there's nothing to adjust under it.
    I'm thinking it really needs an adjustable rod. Cheers. ps sorry for duplicated pics.Too much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_235011-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_234549-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225808-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225526-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225502-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225449-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225422-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_235011-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_234549-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225808-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225526-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225502-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225449-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-20241005_225422-jpg

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by deacon Mark
    Need the above ask for information. If it has some neck reinforcement like a bar that is good. Compression fretting can be done. If it has no reinforcement only wood I might think about adding steel bar if guitar worth it. Expensive unless you can do it yourself.
    Yes, there is a solid steel bar as far as I can make out.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GuyBoden
    You could carefully clamp the neck and then pull it back to a bit more than your required relief, leave it clamped for over a week.
    This is probably worth a try.
    Do you use any heat in the process?
    Do you clamp it with a slight back bow or dead straight?
    So it looks like it's sometimes necessary for a guitar with a normal truss rod.
    Cheers

  11. #10

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    OK, here is what I see. The neck has 20 thousands bow from 70 years of string tension. Putting your normal set of strings on pulls about 6 thousands more. The very simplest thing would be to pull the frets, level the board from one end to the other -dead flat. Refret it with standard wire, I don't see binding so that is a simple operation. String it back up, you should have 6 thousands of relief. My normal acceptable range is 5 to 10. Life is good.

    Second option would be to pull the fretboard (again, straightforward with no binding). I use a silicon blanket and a couple of pallet knives, a clothes iron might do it, Level the top of the neck. Install some sort of truss rod (different rods will have different challenges), looks like the headstock access has been taken care of for you. Glue the f/b back on, if the frets are perfect you might get away without replacing them, I would put new ones in. You'll have to touch up the finish on the sides of the neck and fretboard.

    Both those are controllable and predictable. The second is a lot more work of course but you get an adjustable truss rod. If it was my guitar I would try the first and see what it gets me.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
    OK, here is what I see. The neck has 20 thousands bow from 70 years of string tension. Putting your normal set of strings on pulls about 6 thousands more. The very simplest thing would be to pull the frets, level the board from one end to the other -dead flat. Refret it with standard wire, I don't see binding so that is a simple operation. String it back up, you should have 6 thousands of relief. My normal acceptable range is 5 to 10. Life is good.

    Second option would be to pull the fretboard (again, straightforward with no binding). I use a silicon blanket and a couple of pallet knives, a clothes iron might do it, Level the top of the neck. Install some sort of truss rod (different rods will have different challenges), looks like the headstock access has been taken care of for you. Glue the f/b back on, if the frets are perfect you might get away without replacing them, I would put new ones in. You'll have to touch up the finish on the sides of the neck and fretboard.

    Both those are controllable and predictable. The second is a lot more work of course but you get an adjustable truss rod. If it was my guitar I would try the first and see what it gets me.
    Thanks for your recommendations. My preferred option albeit a costly one, would be the adjustable rod. I would then feel happier using heavier strings.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    Thanks for your recommendations. My preferred option albeit a costly one, would be the adjustable rod. I would then feel happier using heavier strings.
    Obviously you should discuss that with your repair tech, but I think it is very doable. You should also discuss other options with someone who would be doing them for you. Good luck, it looks like a pretty cool little guitar.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
    Obviously you should discuss that with your repair tech, but I think it is very doable. You should also discuss other options with someone who would be doing them for you. Good luck, it looks like a pretty cool little guitar.
    Thanks again.
    I could possibly remove the fret board and install the rod myself but don't think I'd be competent enough to flatten the neck , do the re - gluing and restore any damaged finish. I'd just as well leave the whole job to a pro.
    I bought the guitar as a bit of a novelty and, yes, it's turned out to be pretty cool. As is, it plays surprisingly well, stays in tune, has perfect intonation and has a great sound. Some may say the work isn't worth it. I think it could be better. It just needs fatter strings and it needs a stronger neck for that.
    In the meantime I may try the clamp technique.

  15. #14

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    Has anyone considered replaning the neck? I know it involves a re-fret, but it works with the grain and orientation of the wood as it has come to rest over time. On older guitars, I explore the possibility of re-planing a fingerboard (if it allows as far as fingerboard depth) and taking down localized high points to create a flat fingerboard.
    I've had success and it maintains the integrity of the wood and as much of the original guitar as possible.
    New fingerboard would be my own second choice if it's really bad.

    I respect all the above options. This is my own take.
    Good luck

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    Thanks again.
    I could possibly remove the fret board and install the rod myself but don't think I'd be competent enough to flatten the neck , do the re - gluing and restore any damaged finish. I'd just as well leave the whole job to a pro.
    I bought the guitar as a bit of a novelty and, yes, it's turned out to be pretty cool. As is, it plays surprisingly well, stays in tune, has perfect intonation and has a great sound. Some may say the work isn't worth it. I think it could be better. It just needs fatter strings and it needs a stronger neck for that.
    In the meantime I may try the clamp technique.
    This video shows how to do a truss rod conversion on an old Martin. It seems like a lot of work.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    This is probably worth a try.
    Do you use any heat in the process?
    Do you clamp it with a slight back bow or dead straight?
    So it looks like it's sometimes necessary for a guitar with a normal truss rod.
    Cheers
    I've not used heat, I'd clamp the neck to just beyond your needed relief, the clamp method is used to assist trussrod adjustment on vintage guitars (it's safer).

    The clamping method would be what I'd try first, it might work if the guitar is clamped for about a week. (You need a big adjustable clamp.)

    Watch this video from about 3:18min

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Has anyone considered replaning the neck? I know it involves a re-fret, but it works with the grain and orientation of the wood as it has come to rest over time. On older guitars, I explore the possibility of re-planing a fingerboard (if it allows as far as fingerboard depth) and taking down localized high points to create a flat fingerboard.
    I've had success and it maintains the integrity of the wood and as much of the original guitar as possible.
    New fingerboard would be my own second choice if it's really bad.

    I respect all the above options. This is my own take.
    Good luck
    That was my first suggestion, by far the least invasive and with a very good chance of success.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    This video shows how to do a truss rod conversion on an old Martin. It seems like a lot of work.
    Thanks. Of the many neck/TR vids I've watched recently, I hadn't seen this one.

  20. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
    That was my first suggestion, by far the least invasive and with a very good chance of success.
    My only concern with that is how the (then) straight neck would react to heavier strings, particularly in the long term. I may again end up with too much relief and would be back to square one. Or am I wrong? Thanks

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    My only concern with that is how the (then) straight neck would react to heavier strings, particularly in the long term. I may again end up with too much relief and would be back to square one. Or am I wrong? Thanks
    You have a very good opportunity to find out before you commit to doing anything. Throw a set of 13's or whatever you like on, measure the change in relief from no tension to whatever you have with the strings on.

    When I build a neck I make it dead flat on top, install a double acting rod and glue the fretboard on. My experience has been that almost every one has pulled 5 to 7 or 8 thousands with light or medium gauge strings. That is pretty much perfect but the truss rod is there if I need it. The last neck I built I put two CF beams next to the truss rod, it is almost too stiff (I put the rods in to help support the floating extension

    Too much relief on a non adjustable neck-img_7220-jpg

    I do agree that the ideal situation is to install an adjustable truss rod but as the video shows, it is a heck of a lot of work and is quite invasive. Many guitars were built without adjustable rods (all those "70's Martins are good examples), my feeling is that a simple refret with a little work on the board will give you 70 more years of playing. If it doesn't work, then take the board off and do the next big step.

    FWIW here is taking a fretboard off. The red thing underneath is a silicon heating blanket, I'm working pallet knives into the glue seam

    Too much relief on a non adjustable neck-img_5062-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-img_5063-jpg

    It was a neck under construction, the owner wanted a different fretboard and this was the easiest way.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
    That was my first suggestion, by far the least invasive and with a very good chance of success.
    Right on Freeman Keller! In your corner.
    Always a joy to read your informed posts, by the way.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
    ... That is pretty much perfect but the truss rod is there if I need it. The last neck I built I put two CF beams next to the truss rod, it is almost too stiff (I put the rods in to help support the floating extension
    .
    That was my experience with graphite. Set dead on. Stayed dead on. Went with half the depth on a 12 string and it still kept a true plane. Gotta learn to tame graphite, it's pretty strong stuff.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy blue note
    Right on Freeman Keller! In your corner.
    Always a joy to read your informed posts, by the way.
    Thank you, Jimmy, I try to make my comments appropriate to the instrument and the situation. I'm not a "luthier", I have too much respect for the people who I think deserve that title, I've built a few dozen guitars and fixed a few more, but I'm always learning and I try to pass along the little bit that I have learned. When doing repairs I like to think about what is best for this guitar and am I the right one to do it. Most of the time it works out pretty well.

  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman Keller
    You have a very good opportunity to find out before you commit to doing anything. Throw a set of 13's or whatever you like on, measure the change in relief from no tension to whatever you have with the strings on.

    When I build a neck I make it dead flat on top, install a double acting rod and glue the fretboard on. My experience has been that almost every one has pulled 5 to 7 or 8 thousands with light or medium gauge strings. That is pretty much perfect but the truss rod is there if I need it. The last neck I built I put two CF beams next to the truss rod, it is almost too stiff (I put the rods in to help support the floating extension

    Too much relief on a non adjustable neck-img_7220-jpg

    I do agree that the ideal situation is to install an adjustable truss rod but as the video shows, it is a heck of a lot of work and is quite invasive. Many guitars were built without adjustable rods (all those "70's Martins are good examples), my feeling is that a simple refret with a little work on the board will give you 70 more years of playing. If it doesn't work, then take the board off and do the next big step.

    FWIW here is taking a fretboard off. The red thing underneath is a silicon heating blanket, I'm working pallet knives into the glue seam

    Too much relief on a non adjustable neck-img_5062-jpgToo much relief on a non adjustable neck-img_5063-jpg

    It was a neck under construction, the owner wanted a different fretboard and this was the easiest way.
    Another great post filled with your wisdom. Thank you so much. I have some Monel 13s which I will put on tonight. I bet it will sound gorgeous!

  26. #25

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    Too much relief on a non adjustable neck-neck-jpg
    This photo shows the neck joint and elevated f/b. Another photo in this series shows a tall -somewhat elevated bridge. If a reset were ever decided upon for this guitar, would / could the luthier take off some stock at that area and by doing so improve the playability ?
    Assuming the top hadn't sunk, and was stable, won't the playability always be dependent on this neck joint dimension and any ' extra ' material that may not have been needed ?