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All of this is ill-defined. There is no National Bureau of Standards definition of "jazz player". No agreed upon list of what you must know.
But, this is an art form with some traditions that are pretty widely accepted.
If you need a chart for Blue Bossa, the other players in the band are less likely to accept you as a well rounded jazz player. They won't care if you can wail on your own stuff.
A lot of people don't want to see charts at jams. (I'm not one of them, but I know some of them). There is a tradition which rejects it. You can choose to be part of that tradition or not.
A name that a few might know is Andre Bush, a great player (also wrote a book) who opined that all 12 notes could work against anything. His favorite music was metal and he sounded like a manic metal musician while playing jazz.
Perhaps surprisingly, Andre (who passed quite young, sadly) could also play jazz guitar like Barney Kessel. People expressed surprise when they heard him do it. His response: "if I couldn't do that (Kessel), I couldn't do this", referring to his outside-sounding style.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-05-2023 at 06:23 PM.
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01-05-2023 04:53 PM
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I think if you keep going with a new tune learned every week that will be great. Call the tune, stay on if you know the other tunes.
Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
when at the jam listening don’t be passive. Write down the calls; ask what they are if you don’t know them. You’ll soon get to know what the commonly called tunes are on your scene. Go home and listen to them on a loop and then choose a new one to learn.
That’s the way you build up a repertoire of tunes in a quiet, unfussy way. Then it won’t be a big deal and you’ll know the twenty or so songs that are frequently called.
ah never mind, you clearly know best lol.I have a great guitar teacher that has taken me a long way. I'm just gonna stick with the stuff he tells me and avoid getting advice from these salty old guys. I appreciate the effort this jam leader put in and I'll just try to stay grateful but not let it get me too confused.
Is that a fact? :-)I appreciate all the people who posted in this thread and put a few minutes of thought and effort into helping me improve on the guitar.
Look the best and most general advice I can give is that if you are serious about music you kind of need decide what you want to focus on breaking into and take it very seriously.
Not everyone wants to be a straightahead jazz guitarist, and I think it takes a special dedication and unreasonable passion to play that music for a living in this way (that is really not the case for some other areas such as commercial work which is more about the money and the steady gigs.)
Different scenes and professional communities have different requirements. Playing theatre gigs is not like playing straightahead jazz gigs or weekend covers gigs. Know what you are aiming for and take the advice of professionals within the community seriously.
otoh a musician without some sort of repertoire isn’t much use to anyone unless they really can read fly shit.Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-05-2023 at 06:09 PM.
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Maybe I don't get out enough.
But, chart-less casuals are the exception in my recent experience.
Even well rehearsed bands often use charts -- because the music is complicated and therefore hard to memorize. And, not too many bands are playing the same material often enough for memorization by osmosis.
I get hired occasionally for casuals. Even when the tune choice is mostly on the top 50 jazz jam tunes list, the leader usually brings a band book. And, I've seen very experienced old hands use the book even on tunes they must have known. Why not? It assures you'll be in the right key and playing the same arrangement. Anybody who has been in a band which played Green Dolphin Street in both Eb and C, simultanously, will be sympathetic.
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Hey no one said it would be easy. I'm supposed to figure out how to get from
Destination A: 80 tunes that I know well +100ish more that I know half way
TO
Destination B: I know 500 tune perfectly, I don't need no fcking charts
And along the way people are gonna tell me "no charts allowed, you should already be at destination B."
There's not much road map to that, I just try to learn a little more every day.
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Cold reading along with songs you don't know is a skill you can hone at home in the shed, but getting the chance to be on stage with expert level dudes is priceless experience. Even if you lay out on stuff you don't know, and stay out of the way on everything else you are still gaining insight that can only be found in that setting. Instead of avoiding that jam, or going in with a motive to learn a specific thing, I would suggest you do it their way and get every bit of experience you can. Lay out when you need to and only play what makes the band sound great.
Where I've hosted, any time someone pulls out charts we generally think "oh no" because as others have said, it's usually a bad sign. Regardless of what most people think, the only reason jams exist at real venues is to sell drinks and hold the audience. Being a good host band that gets hired back means being focused on those things to a much greater extent than helping jammers level up, although yes there can and should be a balance of both.
On charts, as someone that hires pickup musicians fairly often, some of my least fun experiences have been with guys that read charts all night and played fine, but with their eyes on the chart instead of eyes and ears on the band. If you are on the chart then the rest of us are restricted to what you are reading. Getting super creative is out the window. Sure, this doesn't apply to big band situations or gigs where the band plays the chart verbatim, but those are "recitals". In most settings there is a bit of exploration and creativity mixed into the songs, and that can easily get lost when someone is on the chart.
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Learning a lot of tunes is easy for people with the right skills.
1. Everybody, musician or not, knows lots of tunes. They can hum them and, often enough, sing the words.
2. The key to playing those tunes is to be able to instantly connect the sound in your mind to your fingers making that sound come out of your instrument.
a. For melody, you have to have the skill to hear a phrase in your mind and play it without thought. Any key. Any octave. Automatically.
b. For chords, you have to hear the sound of the harmony of the song in your mind and play it without thought.
If you can do a and b you know lots of tunes.
I think most players who know hundreds of tunes, and can instantly play them in any key, know them this way.
So, if somebody has the goal to know 500 tunes, the key, to my way of thinking, is ear training.
How to do it? I'd suggest using IRealPro, or similar, and playing every tune 13 times, with a key change by a fifth each time. 13 times for melody and another 13 for chords. If you can't do it, slow it down to a crawl and keep trying.
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Well it’s not something that happens overnight for sure. I would say it gets easier. If you know 500 tunes learning tunes is not as hard as when you only know 80 or so. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
The quality of your learning process changes too. What was important to me when I knew fewer tunes is different to what I prioritise now. I learn them differently (and forget them too).
forgetting is fine actually; you are practicing the process of learning. If you get really good at this you can learn tunes very quickly.
But there’s no shortcut to this knowledge, it’s experiential. You kind of just have to learn a bunch of tunes over the course of years. Try to do a much as you can by ear. I would prioritise this over writing down solos. You can learn bebop language from heads for instance, and play them on gigs.
At the end of the day it involves listening to and getting involved in learning music and that’s enjoyable no?
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If you haven't carried anyone's amp yet, you haven't been to enough jams. Old timers can give advice that makes no sense today and then in five or ten years you finally understand what they were trying to communicate. At the time it might sound like BS. It might be BS, but the only way to find out is to keep picking. Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
Your options include never going there again or instead doing some dues paying and maybe impressing some of the other guys enough that you generate yourself some work down the line. Music as a business is a social endeavor. And contrary to what outsiders and amateurs might think, it's a very small community of people. The entire gigging jazz and blues market in the US is probably composed of around a thousand musicians who are working at least bi-weekly. Everyone else is essentially playing at a hobby level. Where do you wish to find yourself in ten years? What you'll find is that you going from noob reading charts at jam changes to you as one of the guys giving advice happens almost imperceptibly. You put a few years in and suddenly you are one of the old heads handing out your best advice that some kid is like "da' heck is he talking about?" The journey there is the adventure. Be laid back and stick with your program. I'll add that Christian Miller has given some very fine advice to you in this thread, might be worth a re-read, post 56 especially I think.
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It's pretty simple really. Someone who can grab their guitar, or whatever, and go to a jam session obviously wouldn't do it unless they were fairly confident that they could do it and enjoy it. They can play well enough, know a decent range of oft-called tunes, and aren't too worried about not fitting in at a reasonable level.
Having said that, sessions differ considerably. Some put a warm sociable atmosphere first and it's all very friendly. They can all play but with differing levels of competency. And, generally, that level's not too high.
Then there are those who are much more serious about the music. In that case there tends to be a lack of real warmth but the quality's better. So it depends, not on the session, but the player. The session is what it is and the player has to decide whether they feel at home there or not.
So I'd say go where you fit. Don't go where you don't fit and then complain, find somewhere else.
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Yeah true, I'm moving on from this particular session. I'm not good enough yet. It's no big deal, I do fine at other sessions. I have gigs too, there's more to life than jam sessions.
Today I memorized the chords to Donna Lee. I can play it without a chart now.
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Cheer up, I can't play it at all! Originally Posted by JazzIsGood
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I bet if you went and watched for a few sessions, without even bringing your guitar, you'd find these cats calling the same tunes more than once...more than twice...
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This describes very well how it works for me. I would just like to add that if I can play a tune by ear, I can play it in any key. It helps me more to know the starting note, rather than the key. When I'm playing by ear, which is probably what I do most, I'm not thinking about chords or note names or positions or how scales fit with chords. All of that information is in the back of my mind somewhere. With improvising, when I play by ear, it sounds like music. If I try to solo over changes, it sounds like a scale exercise. When I'm playing by ear, I never play a song completely straight. It is just like humming or singing to yourself. I think the key to learning this is to do it a lot and to realize that you can correct your mistakes. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I think the key to learning the chords to a song is understanding harmony. According to the theory of functional harmony, there are only three functions, tonic, dominant and subdominant. So any song that never modulates can theoretically be harmonized using three chords. It will sound pretty dull, often, but if one understands the underlying structure of a song, it's easier to internalize. I know the technique of memorizing, I just don't enjoy doing it, especially with increasing age. There are songs where I know the harmonies and I gradually absorbed them by playing them a lot and using trial-and-error. If I was under pressure and had to learn a song by next Tues., I would sit down and memorize it, but understanding the structure will help to do this and also provide a kind of safety net if I had a "blackout".
For me, playing by ear mostly means melodies.
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Don't take advice too literally. Try to take into consideration who people are, and where they are coming from. If someone has been playing standards with top pro players for decades as you mentioned, then of course "music has to be in you" and"notes are out there" etc.. They probably know most standards, are able to harmonize and play any song in any key, etc.. This is where you aspire to one day be!
The best way for me is to just check the ego out the door. Look for what you can get out of the situation, what you can learn. And just go from there. Bitter and far out players can still have lots of stuff to share, if you can navigate it.
Be honest about where your playing is, practice what you need, and things happen. Once someone learns 100-150 standards, does some serious listening of the music, and practices them in a few keys, they probably can play the rest more or less.
Personally, I've always enjoyed instructors that were sincere and practical, more than ones that were flattering or too philosophical. Meaning I can get inspired by art, nature, life.. guitar lesson should be about guitar!
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Another thing that has helped me immensely is playing instruments where you can't play chords, like brass instruments. Single-note playing can sound kind of thin on a guitar, so before I started playing them, I would tend not to do it so much. I believe one tends to play the things that sound good on an instrument, I know I do. However, once I started playing the trumpet, I started to realize the possibilities of single-note playing and started to do it more on the guitar. It wasn't a conscious decision to do this, it just became more fun. I think it's because it's not just what we actually hear, but also what we hear "in our minds".
Another thing that has helped me immensely was playing fretless instruments, first a bass, then an oud and more recently a viola. The viola is the size of a 3/4 size violin so I've got fingerboards from huge to tiny. It gives one a different perspective on the fretboard/fingerboard and is good for increasing one's accuracy. Playing with a slide but not necessarily with portamento all the time is also extremely helpful. I used to do this on my classical guitar before I had other guitars.
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knowing the chart will never be knowing the tune according to me (can you sing the melody in your head an hearing the hamony too ? that's a minima), the way you play a tune is evolving until you stop playing the tune and stop trying to master your guitar the way you want.
A jam is "only" a jam but as a musician I need to feel good even if it's a jam, no way I will play a song If i' don't know the melody, chords are not magic but they are so melody dependent that I think the secret of a tune is there, inside the melody, cause every jazz tune can be played with folk form triads and sounds good cause melody is good.
But you need to thrust yourself, your hears, your eyes, your mind.
The way you play "someday my prince will come" for example or "blue bossa" will not be at the same mastery level in a few yers but if you feel that you know those tunes enough to feel thrusty (let's say in 5 or 6 keys just to be sure in case the guy who wants to play one of this tune in Cb is there
) don't wait to master completly those tunes to play those tunes in a jam. A jam can be seen as a training before "the real shows" to come... .
And as many musicians wrote here before the people you play with are very very important (probably the most important part), jam or not.
If some musicians jamming have big ego problem, you will never see me in this jam !
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If I have any knowledge of this area, it's because I've made a lot of mistakes! Maybe not all the mistakes, but it certainly feel like it lol. Originally Posted by DawgBone
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One idea that crosses my mind is that all unsolicited advice is criticism. Probably not 100% true, but there's at least some truth in it.
So, if you take the viewpoint that the advice the old timers give is actually criticism, you're then faced with trying to understand what it is they don't like about your playing.
Very few people are likely to be blunt because they don't want to be overtly insulting.
If you can figure that out, and if they're right, then you know what you need to work on.
One thing that can help is recording the sessions. Speaking for myself, things that feel right when I'm playing them sometimes sound wrong when I listen to the recording. I think it's very easy to overestimate one's own playing.
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A trained educator could reframe these points to sound less critical while losing no educational value. That’s what I would probably try to do (not sure if I’m always successful.)
but there’s part of me that thinks - this isn’t a game for everyone. Jazz, especially professional jazz, but just jazz in general requires a lot of maniacal dedication. Those who are discouraged at the first hurdle are probably not going to stick it out, and I wouldn’t blame them.
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For sure! I started to capture some gigs with Audacity on a Raspberry Pi several years ago. Then I got a good little digital recorder with built-in mics (TASCAM DR40) and started recording every gig. They should include Tums with those recorders, because some of what I hear in my playing makes me nauseous. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I just listened to last night’s trio gig, and it’s a mixed blessing. Some of my playing was pretty fine, but there are a few attempts at being clever that simply fell flat. I now know not to try them that way again, but I would have thought they were great had I not heard them this morning as they really were.
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In German, we say "Ein Ratschlag ist auch ein Schlag". It's a little hard to translate. A "Ratschlag" is a piece of advice and a "Schlag" is a blow, in the sense of hitting or striking someone or something. Something like "a piece of advice is also a kick in the pants" is the best I can come up with off the top of my head.
It is very true the OP asked for tips, so the advice was not unsolicited. Nonetheless, I don't think "don't read" or "don't play" was what he expected or wanted. I've given examples of what I consider tips. I did not say "Learn to play a wind instrument or you'll never be able to solo" or "Use a slide or you'll never learn the fingerboard". I don't think either of those things is true, nor that what I did say would necessarily be helpful to everyone at all times.
I don't think it's respectful to give advice to people unless they ask for it. If I feel I want to, I ask "Would you mind if I give you some advice?". If people want to know something, they'll ask. They may not be occupied with the things that I feel are important at any given time.
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I would be interested to hear how a trained educator would critique the other players. I would find that discouraging. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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and that’s why it’s good to listen back Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
generally cleverness is a bad idea; unless it’s internalised and then it’s no longer clever (to you, might be to someone else.)
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Well just stuff they tell you do Originally Posted by Litterick
you try to reframe things in a more positive light. Carrot rather than stick. So,
‘It was cool that you played rhythm changes without looking at the chart.”
“I loved it when you did x” (which might be the one listenable thing they did all night, but it’s still a start)
it might seem patronising but encouraging is often more effective than scolding. One reason is that it’s much harder to ‘not do’ something than it is to do something.
Don’t think about that blue giraffe! Don’t play the bad notes!!! Don’t look at a chart!!!! Don’t play too many notes!!!!! Etc etc you become fixated on the thing you shouldn’t be doing. Bad psychology.
otoh this may not be the best tack with people with a big ego, they’ll just assume they are great.
I say this but as a parent and teacher I forget this all the time usually because I knackered.
or non judgemental
“I notice you do x when you play’ (Jim Hall was apparently really good at this.)
Or perhaps most importantly try to encourage self reflection
’what do you think was the best thing you did tonight?’
’what do you feel might have been less successful?’
anyway it’s all a bit cheesy but if you reformulate things like this often it can be more effective. Anyway the phrasing of a question can do all sorts of things depending on how you put it.
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You misunderstand me. My point is that it is wrong to tell one player in an ensemble what you think of the others.
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