Got some odd feedback, can you help?

[JazzIsGood]

Yes Laurence you make an excellent point. There's an element of this kind of thing that is really a bunch of BS.

I think for most people it's good because you get to network, get to meet other similar minded musicians, maybe some people hope to get a gig out of it.

For me, I'm mainly there to learn to play songs I don't know that well, play off charts, and do so under pressure. Having a live audience and a band leader who is a ballbuster is exactly what I signed up for. In 2022 I've been trying to get accustomed to lots of different jazz settings. First I focused on quartet where I know the songs and it's basically my band. That was the easiest scenario I could think of because there's nothing unexpected that will come up and the horn player carries a lot of the weight. I can memorize the tunes and play them for hours to get prepared if I need to. I also learned to do open jams, sideman gigs, singer duo gigs, bass/guitar duo gigs, 4 hour gigs, corporate parties where nobody listens, small gigs where everyone listens, etc. I have not tried solo gigs yet, that one is really hard for me because I am not a chord melody type of player. Not sure if I will ever get that one.

My teacher and I have talked about how sometimes I get nervous or lose focus and that's where a lot of the problems in my playing come from. For example, there was a time when I was getting frazzled at gigs by people filming me with their phones. Sounds weird but that was screwing me up. My focus was very fragile at that time. Band leader tasks were also getting me frazzled, like people would talk to me during songs and I would get lost. In order to play well I need to stay in the zone and get in touch with my emotions a bit more while I play. I've made big strides in this over the last 6 months or so. Now I can have a full conversation while comping and not get lost. I'm not scared at jam sessions anymore. At lousy sessions with crappy players I don't start getting negative and letting it affect my playing.

So anyway, the point of going to this inhospitable jam session is to hold my own feet to the fire. This thread has been helpful too, because I have to process the positive and negative experience in order to improve.

[Laurence Finston]

That's very interesting, thanks. Totally different from what I do. I would love to play with other people but somehow it's never seemed to work out. The possibilities where I live are limited. There is no jazz session or jazz club here.

I'm primarily an arranger, which is basically because I love to learn new instruments and it's something you can do with that. I don't feel that the world requires new arrangements. It's an activity that requires staying home and playing or practicing rather than going out and jamming with other people, so it's suitable to my situation, too. I'm working on making recordings of myself using overdubbing and studio trickery. My preference would be to play live with other people, but life is full of compromises.

[Laurence Finston]

Unsolicited advice is never good advice. Bossing people around and bullying them is never okay and being a "jazz master" doesn't mean that the sun shines out of one's backside.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

If I was going to lay out, I'd rather just stay home.

The alternative would be to listen to others play and maybe even discover a new tune that you’ll come to love. I’m always amazed at the number of players coming to jams only to play - many leave immediately after their turn on the stage. We can all learn from each other, even if it’s only learning what doesn’t work. A jam is also a show.

I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating here: when choosing bandmates, you want players who care more about the music than about their own solos. If they truly love and respect the music, their own playing will reflect it regardless of their level of achievement. Simple but tasteful solid playing trumps showy cliches every time.

Leaving instead of listening to a tune a player doesn’t know could cause some (including me) to question why one comes to a jam.

[Tal_175]

Let's also not forget that from the perspective of most people who run jam sessions it's just a gig for them. They do it because they need the money, not because they want to educate new comers. There are practical constraints they have to negotiate. They have to keep the venue owners happy. That means they need to keep the patrons happy. That often means they need to keep the high-level players happy. So some of the "advice" they give are simply boundaries they feel they need to maintain to keep the gig.

I've been in situations where I was pressured to stay on the stage even if I wanted to lay out because I didn't know the tune. Those were the nights when there weren't many musicians waiting to play and the jam leader wanted to keep the show going. Of course in those instances they are gonna tell you how it's so important that you have to take chances and learn how to hold your own when you don't know the tune, lol. They are just trying to not get fired from the gig.

[Laurence Finston]

this is all good and well, but how does it relate to OP who didnt get any unsolicited advice and wasnt bossed around in any shape or form? OP hoped for some "useful tipps" from a good player and got them even if he doesnt appreciate it. no good deed goes unpunished, eh?

That's not the impression I got.

[Laurence Finston]

The alternative would be to listen to others play and maybe even discover a new tune that you’ll come to love. I’m always amazed at the number of players coming to jams only to play - many leave immediately after their turn on the stage. We can all learn from each other, even if it’s only learning what doesn’t work. A jam is also a show.

I explained why I have never gone to a jam session. There is no way I could fulfill the criteria for participation. Playing with other people is one of my favorite things to do, but that situation just isn't a good fit.

[Christian Miller]

I got some weird tips from an old jazz pro, can anyone help me sort this out?

I went to an open jam, it's run by a guitar player who has been a pro for decades and played with lots of big names. The reason I went to is to improve my playing. Specifically, I would like to be able to read a chord chart for songs I don't know (or don't know well) and play decently well in a high pressure situation. I already am booking gigs and doing just fine at my gigs, but I want to be able to take sideman gigs where they throw tunes at you, and this is my path to getting there. I've been working on it for a few months now, and I am getting pretty good at taking a tune I don't know well, playing good comp chords for it, and playing a solo that people enjoy.

I know the sound of most jazz tunes, I have listened to this stuff for decades on the radio. But that doesn't mean I know how to play them.

OK so I get up there and I'm setting up my stand and IrealPro. The guy running the jam gets on the mic and says something about how you shouldn't be reading these tunes, they should already be in you. So I put the stand aside and played without it. Hey it's his jam so I want to be respectful. The horn players called a tune I didn't know, but it was rhythm changes. I did take a quick look at the chart before they started to see if there's any curve balls, but then I put it behind me so I was not reading during the song.

It went fine, I had a good solo and some good comping. The old pro guy comes back and says "well that was really nice, you sound good." And I said thanks and sorry for the charts at your jam, I'm just trying to work on my reading. He says that's not reading, it's just chords, reading is the little black dots with the squiggly lines. I figured this guy is better than me, I'll just let that condescending remark go and see if I can get any useful tips out of him.

I told him I can read, i generally use it for transcribing and I showed him some transcriptions I'm working on. But I'm trying to read songs I don't know under pressure.

His advice was "if you don't know the song don't play."
Which is odd to me because I literally just played a song I don't know and he said it sounded good.
Also I wasn't about to drive an hour each way just to sit there and not play when I know with about 75% certainty that I can get through most rhythm changes type tunes.

Next piece of advice on transcribing- "dont transcribe full songs, just take a few measures that you like."
This is useful and I will try it. People have told me this before.
Usually I transcribe 32 bars or so, it has been a huge help in my playing. Possibly the greatest tool I have. I would be a bit hesitant to stop this altogether.

Next tip was "When are you ever gonna need to read? Benson didn't read....etc. Use your practice time carefully."
Ok good tip, I will take that intro consideration.

"Don't use charts, this music should be in you."
This one I really think is bullcrap. If I knew 1200 standards by heart I would not be at an open jam, I'd be playing a paying gig somewhere. I didn't go to music school and do not have the luxury of learning 1200 standards for a genre of music that will never be earning me a living. There has to be an on-ramp for intermediate players to get to the next level, and I think charts are useful for that.

I told him I transcribe George Benson and Grant and it's been very helpful. He says "I know George Benson, I used to hang out at his house for weeks at a time and get tips from him."
OK so that's cool and all, but not gonna help me get to the next level. Those of use who live in the real world and are not room mates with George Benson might benefit from transcribing a bit.

But still, I wanted to show respect and see if he had anything useful. So we sat down and he critiqued a few of the other players and talked about "honest playing." This was pretty useful because I could pick up on it. On the way home I did re-listen to one of my gigs and see if it sounds honest. This was useful and worth the effort of listening to this guy clown me me in front of an audience about reading charts.

Next tip was "try to get the energy of the room, when I'm playing I'm pulling notes out of the air."
Master level guys really are full of bad advice and it's stuff like this that makes jazz hard to learn. I'm trying to play rhythm changes and not screw up the form. If I'm not careful I could easily skip an A section and throw off the whole band when there's 3 A sections in a row. That's where my head is at. I gotta stay humble cause I'm not a great player. I need to try hard and focus to avoid mistakes. It would be nice to be pulling notes out of the air and have hundreds of standards memorized, but again, if that was the case I wouldn't be playing for free at an open jam on a Monday night.

These old master level guys try to say a bunch of Yoda stuff to everyone else at open jam, what's up with this? I think they're just feeding their own ego. It's not good teaching.

In any event I was grateful that he took the time to attempt to teach me something, I just need some help defragging it and getting the most I can out of it.

One thing I know for sure is I'm not giving up my charts next time. That is my elevator to the next level and I'm not letting people take away my learning tools with their unrealistic ideas. I'm gonna start challenging these guys and if they kick me out of the jam that is fine with me. I think that might be the ultimate lesson in this whole thing. The Real Book and IrealPro have taken me from someone who just plays in my living room all the way to playing 9 paying gigs last month. I've played some really excellent solos over songs I don't know at jam sessions while using charts, some of the best stuff I've ever played. I use Ireal, the Real Book, Drum Genius, and Jamey Ambersol backing tracks for practicing and I am NOT giving them up to start "pulling notes out of the air." Am I wrong here? I am open to some outside opinions.

Yeah your man’s attitudes are typical of an experienced straightahead player. Among other things he’s laying out for you what is expected of a member of that professional musical community, what he would expect of a deputising player for instance. If you want to play that music, I would listen to him, it’s good advice. although I too am a little puzzled about the ‘pulling the notes out of the air thing’.

that said reading the energy of the room is very important. Your solos should reflect the moment, the band and the audience. A vibey crowd doesn’t want cleverness for instance; they want energy, excitement and rhythm. A jazz club audience otoh might enjoy something more complex and cerebral. Maybe that’s what he meant?

Standards should ideally be memorised if you are going to play them at a gig or jam. Most use charts from time to time, but straightahead players place great value in a big standards repertoire and really care about things like the details of the changes and so on. I’m not going to be too puritan about this; I do have to use iReal sometimes but in general it’s better to not have to. Some people have a zero charts policy and I respect that. And yes I would rather lay out than play a tune I don’t know at a jam.

a lot of players are sniffy about the the quality of the iReal changes as well. There’s definitely some stinkers in there. also iReal doesn’t have the melody. Aebersold can be a bit dodgy sometimes too and the old real book is notorious for errors although the 6th edition is much improved.

Better to consult a few sources when learning a tune and use your ears. Don’t trust what’s in the app, anyone can contribute a chart. If you want to be a good straightahead player that is. That stuff is really important to those guys. Learn as many tunes as you can if you want to be called by them.

And listen to lots of the music and think about what tunes YOU want to learn. It’s cool for a vet to have someone call an unusual tune rather than All the Things all the time.

as far as reading - real reading is a valuable skill. Disagree it’s not worth learning, though it’s less important to become a good bop/straightahead guitar player. It is useful for getting paid work in general though. I would recommend joining a big band and practicing your reading using a Real Book and Omnibooks as part of your practice routines. Reading is very important for bands that play original material and arrangements.

Tip for rhythm changes - the first and second A sections have different endings, the first ends on F7 the second on Bb. Subtle, but it helps. I’ve heard some mega musicians screw up AABA though, it happens.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I explained why I have never gone to a jam session.

Yes, you did. I think this covers it:

I could never participate in a session under these conventions; that's why I never have.

I was making a general point triggered by your statement that “If I was going to lay out, I'd rather just stay home”. The number of players with that attitude is astounding to me, and it’s one of the main contributors to the progressive decline in enjoyable jams. I lead the house bands at a weekly jazz jam and a blues jam, both beginning after my band’s sets and both at a small local club whose owner has invested in top quality house sound, backline, drum kit, Nord Stage piano, Hammond XK5 Pro with Leslie 3300, kitchen, food, and bar. He installed a full tilt boogie HEPA HVAC system and bought a spray disinfectant system to combat Covid.

In return for this, about half of those who come to jam eat and drink nothing - they contribute zero to help keep the place afloat. Many are so self-centered that they push us to do their tunes (even originals for which they brought no charts) their way, planning to call out their own changes. Last week, one particularly offensive guitar player wanted to use my amp even though I was backing him - he was as nasty and demanding as he was mediocre. Another was unhappy with his tone through our tweed Blues Deluxe and wanted me to let him use my Wampler pedal (through which I was playing at the time).

Those who come to play and join the party are a pleasure. Those who insist on their way or the highway are a problem. Common ground rules and a few simple consistencies make everything easier and better. Everybody brings joy to a jam - some when they arrive and some when they leave.

[AllanAllen]

This is a serious question, so please don't take it the wrong way: What is the appeal of going to an event like this? I have to say, it doesn't sound like fun to me and the behavior of the participants doesn't make them sound like people I would want to spend my free time with.

I could never participate in a session under these conventions; that's why I never have. Not a jazz session, not a folk session, not an Irish session. I know lots of songs but I don't like to memorize. I'll either play from a lead sheet or by ear. When I play by ear, I don't necessarily "stick to the chart". I've never been good at fulfilling other peoples' criteria and it seems that that's what required.

If I was going to lay out, I'd rather just stay home.

The whole situation reminds me of some events involving a sort of martial art that I used to participate in. I stopped going because I already attended kindergarten when I was child, I didn't need to repeat the experience as an adult. Sorry if this appears to question the whole principle of sessions; I'm sure for some people they're great.

For what it's worth, the jams I go to aren't like this at ALL. Everyone is welcome, a bass player walked me through an entire song when I got turned around. I called a song in E once but meant A, it was a huge mess then someone realized what happened and laughingly shouted "He meant A" problem solved.

The host will put together groups and each group gets 3-5 songs. It's fun, I do get feedback that could be taken sourly like work on some endings or nobody knows these songs but you, you have to explain them better. But that's kindness, if the guys are cutting you they'll stonewall you.

[Laurence Finston]

I was making a general point triggered by your statement that “If I was going to lay out, I'd rather just stay home”.

I wouldn't dispute anything you wrote. What I meant was, if I was being asked or expected to lay out, I wouldn't go. I can play from a lead sheet, if that's not allowed, I wouldn't go. I've played some songs many, many times and I don't know the chord changes by heart. I can play them by ear, but I don't "stick to the chart" when I do that. I wouldn't play with people who said "no reading" even if I knew the songs by heart and it only affected other people. I don't like when people are excluded. I'm not saying I haven't been guilty of it myself, but I eventually learned that it was wrong.

I've heard so many horror stories about sessions that I have no desire to ever go to one. Like the one where the leader accompanied everyone on cajon, whether they wanted him to or not.

[Tal_175]

I wouldn't dispute anything you wrote. What I meant was, if I was being asked or expected to lay out, I wouldn't go. I can play from a lead sheet, if that's not allowed, I wouldn't go. I've played some songs many, many times and I don't know the chord changes by heart. I can play them by ear, but I don't "stick to the chart" when I do that. I wouldn't play with people who said "no reading" even if I knew the songs by heart and it only affected other people. I don't like when people are excluded. I'm not saying I haven't been guilty of it myself, but I eventually learned that it was wrong.

I've heard so many horror stories about sessions that I have no desire to ever go to one. Like the one where the leader accompanied everyone on cajon, whether they wanted him to or not.

The point of not reading charts on the bandstand is that if you've internalized the tune, your attention is freed and you are more able to listen to what other players are doing and respond to them, interact with them etc. Does that not make sense to you?

I also find that if I read charts, I never learn a tune, no matter how many times I play it. I have to specifically work on playing a tune without the charts in order to really learn it.

[AllanAllen]

Man if you expect everything to be perfect and accommodate you. You’re better off at home.

You’re going to go up and make an ass of yourself for a long time before you get good. It’s just how it is.

[Laurence Finston]

The point of not reading charts on the bandstand is that if you've internalized the tune, your attention is freed and you are more able to listen to what other players are doing and respond to them, interact with them etc. Does that not make sense to you?

Yes, it makes sense to me. There's nobody here to interact with, so it's kind of moot.

[Laurence Finston]

Man if you expect everything to be perfect and accommodate you. You’re better off at home.

You’re going to go up and make an ass of yourself for a long time before you get good. It’s just how it is.

It's not my ambition to get good at playing at jam sessions. There is no jazz jam session here for me to have expectations of. I don't think allowing people to read charts is unreasonable. Forbidding it is what I call bossing people around and bullying them. I've had enough of situations with people who think they're some kind of elite lording it over others and making them feel inferior. I don't like people like that and I don't associate with them if I can possibly help it. I don't need them to become a better musician.

The best way to become a better musician is to help someone who's not as good as you are. If anyone doesn't believe me, I invite them to try it.

[Laurence Finston]

he's 100% right and the only one condescending is you here.

I strongly disagree with this and strongly disapprove of the tone and substance of it. I disagree with a lot of the other things said in this posting, too. To be fair, one would have to hear the other person's side of the story, but the behavior described is not what I consider decent treatment and it being a jam session doesn't excuse it.

[Christian Miller]

I mean djg was a bit blunter than me but he’s not wrong.

djg is a pro jazz player btw and he’s studied with some of the best. Not everyone on this thread has that experience.

again if you want people to tell you what you want to hear there’s places for that. If you are interested in being a good jazz player, this is the stuff you need to hear.

I wish I’d sought out, listened to and actioned this type of advice more back in the day. But it is hard, I still struggle with this sort of thing.

makes me feel like I need to get learning some tunes again haha, been a bit remiss on that lately.

[rpjazzguitar]

In a situation with a nightly pro-am jam, one bit of advice I got was to appreciate the level of the jam at all times -- and lay out if it went over my head. That calls for a level of self-evaluation that can be challenging.

I've come to accept that, in music, if you can handle the blows to your self-esteem, you can improve more rapidly.

[JazzIsGood]

I dont mind DJG being blunt, I'm here to learn and if I need to get smacked around a bit that's fine with me. It's an internet forum, my feelings will be just fine. I will add a few things that were not in the first post but are now becoming more relevant.

1- the house band's piano player was reading a little bit a chart and had a stand out. Not sure what was on it. He played during the pre jam main gig, and was up for the jam as well. I had no way of knowing reading charts was banned at this jam.

2- I put $10 in the bands tip jar during the main gig. Had a drink also. I get that the bar and the band need to make money and I'm not here trying to stop them or take something for nothing. They've got a business to run. They had 100+ people in the audience so they were doing just fine for a Monday but I'm sure I did my part.

There's some excellent tips in the DJG post which I will take note of (the A sections of rhythm changes for ex). I get your point about the 20 most basic jazz tunes. Yes I've got those. My question is this- what about tunes that are MOSTLY a blues or MOSTLY rhythm changes but they have a few things different. I've seen tunes at jams that are 12 bar blues but the last 4 bars have something a bit different. That's why I think it's worth a quick look at a chart to check. Or another example, people will call out Blues for Alice and say "same changes as Confirmation" but there's a few bars that are different and the Abm is pretty crucial to play over. Bird always plays over that Abm. If I go off the sax players advice and play it as if it's Confirmation that's not gonna be so good.

As far as the reason why jams exist, this is an interesting topic. OK sure it's purpose is not to give me a place to read under pressure. So what is the purpose then? To give people a place to play? To entertain the crowd? To give the old guys a place to enforce jazz rules on the newer guys? To make money for the house band? If we are here to entertain a crowd who cares if people use charts? Is the crowd gonna say "Yuck these guys use charts, I'm leaving and going to a better jazz club." I'm not trying to be an ass here, I'll go along with it and I did go along with it. I'm here on the forum 3 days later to try to understand.

As far as "how much was the lesson" this guy running the jam literally walks around giving everyone teaching points. I don't understand all the lessons but I do appreciate the effort. He likes doing it and people seem to like getting the tips. I'm open to all his tips, but I'm trying to get some clarity here on the forum because it wasn't a paid lesson so I'm not gonna browbeat the guy for 20 minutes like WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT??? I do need to figure out if this stuff is applicable in the real world so I can keep advancing. Am I the idiot because I read charts and transcribe Benson solos?? If I need to go through life never reading charts and learning everything by ear I can do that, but I really gotta change course. Right now I learn tunes by listening to versions from the greats and then playing them with a chart and a backing track until I have them. Some tunes I have really internalized. Others are still a work in progress.

[Laurence Finston]

I dont mind DJG being blunt, I'm here to learn and if I need to get smacked around a bit that's fine with me. It's an internet forum, my feelings will be just fine. I will add a few things that were not in the first post but are now becoming more relevant.

I'm glad you have a thick skin, but with all due respect, that's as may be. I haven't read the forum rules, but usually there's something in there about treating people with respect and a person with a thinner skin might have felt intimidated.

If you're looking for advice about transcribing, my advice would be don't bother. I don't think it helps in learning to improvise. I think improvising helps in learning to improvise. The best exercise is to do the thing itself, i.e., playing real music. Some people spend their whole lives doing preliminary exercises and never get to the real thing. You can do the real thing now. You don't need to know what Charlie Parker played or Dexter Gordon or Anthony Braxton. They played it into the air and it's gone. Far better to do something new.

I don't understand why anyone would want to know the 20 - 30 songs that "everybody knows". That makes me think of cookies cut out with cookie-cutters, not musicians. What are the songs you like? I know hundreds of songs. I know because I've written out over 300 lead sheets. Those are only the songs where I would otherwise have to turn pages. I've made the public domain ones available, by the way. I don't care which ones everyone knows, these are ones I like.

I never would have written this if you hadn't invited comments, but this is what I really think and no offence intended.

[mr. beaumont]

Don't study Charlie Parker, don't learn songs that allow you to play with others.

That's a head scratcher for me, man.

[Laurence Finston]

Don't study Charlie Parker, don't learn songs that allow you to play with others.

That's a head scratcher for me, man.

I didn't say not to listen to Charlie Parker and I didn't say not to play with others. There are other ways to play with others and among those 20 - 30 songs there are surely some that someone who likes jazz would like. Nothing on earth could make me learn a song that I didn't like. Not any more, I did a couple of arrangements for songs I didn't like for the money, but fortunately I'm out of the rat race.

[DawgBone]

Charts are like GPS, if you use it for everywhere you need to go you'll never memorize the way. Same goes for lyrics. If I read them off the sheet all the time, they never get committed to memory.

I thought the seasoned professionals "if you don't know the tune, don't play" was solid advice. No one is gonna look like crap, including you, if you bow out on stuff you don't have down. Make a note of what song it is and learn it for next time.

I don't get bringing charts to a jam either. There are blues songs that are a long way from 1-IV-V stuff that can get called at a blues jam. Who brings a chart to those? If you don't know the song, don't play. Sometimes playing for the song means not playing at all. Which brings me to my point: if you don't know the lyrics to the song, you don't know the song. Best of fortunes on your future jamming.

[Litterick]

Yeah your man’s attitudes are typical of an experienced straightahead player. Among other things he’s laying out for you what is expected of a member of that professional musical community, what he would expect of a deputising player for instance. If you want to play that music, I would listen to him, it’s good advice. although I too am a little puzzled about the ‘pulling the notes out of the air thing’.

He was playing a role: characters like him can be found in any number of movies. But this happened in the real world, where taking the mic to berate a player and later critiquing other players with him are not acceptable. The George Benson anecdote was just weird. Jazz has a long history of questionable behaviour that does not need to be perpetuated in our times.

[JazzIsGood]

OK I think I know what I'm gonna do.

For now I'm gonna go to jams where they are OK with charts until I get this "read under pressure" thing figured out. I'm halfway home on that one so it should only take a few more months.

Eventually I'll need the "know every tune and play without charts" skill set. And when that time comes, I'll go back to this jam and deal with whatever they throw at me. If they call something obscure I'll lay out.

I have a great guitar teacher that has taken me a long way. I'm just gonna stick with the stuff he tells me and avoid getting advice from these salty old guys. I appreciate the effort this jam leader put in and I'll just try to stay grateful but not let it get me too confused.

I appreciate all the people who posted in this thread and put a few minutes of thought and effort into helping me improve on the guitar.