The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Just wondering what forum members thought about Hard Bop/Post Bop on jazz guitar? The reason that I ask is that I'd consider myself more of a straight ahead player and I've seen a few guitarists playing post bop and hard bop tunes without a pianist, and I find it a bit difficult to listen to. For example I recently saw a couple of players playing Joe Henderson tunes like Punjab and Serenity. Both players are very good and definitely know what they're doing theory wise, it's just I found it very hard to discern what was going on harmonically. As Punjab was a tune I wasn't familiar with I checked out a recording by Kurt Rosenwinkel from a recent album of this tune, to my ears he had a different approach in that he relied a lot more on block chords and chord melodies to relate the harmony.

    It just seems to me that without another instrument to provide the harmony there is a tendency for guitarists to noodle around the changes, play patterns etc. I've also been asked to play these type of tunes at jams and so on, to my ears they sound kind of funny without a McCoy Tyner or a Herbie Hancock playing those full bright chords.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Honestly I wonder if we could all do with playing more chords

  4. #3

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    This week, I have mostly been playing fewer chords.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    This week, I have mostly been playing fewer chords.
    Well that’s WRONG

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Well that’s WRONG
    I'll get my coat.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    This week, I have mostly been playing fewer chords.
    Niiiice

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Honestly I wonder if we could all do with playing more chords
    An epiphany for me was realizing that a "chord" is like a CAT scan - a moment in time and the notes that are sounding at that time.

    Of course, in geometry a chord is a line connecting two points of an arc.* So the analogy holds, in the dusty recesses of what remains of my mind.

    *And what about the angle that subtends that arc, what do we call that?

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    An epiphany for me was realizing that a "chord" is like a CAT scan - a moment in time and the notes that are sounding at that time.

    Of course, in geometry a chord is a line connecting two points of an arc.* So the analogy holds, in the dusty recesses of what remains of my mind.

    *And what about the angle that subtends that arc, what do we call that?
    Works for me

  10. #9

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    As it happens we did Punjab for the virtual jam thing here recently. I didn’t like the piano on the backing track I used, so I took it off, but as you say, for this kind of tune it’s easy to get a bit lost without it. What I tried to do was play clear lines based on the chords, and also use some passages of chords in the solo here and there. Also I found referring to bits of the melody was useful (I didn’t plan that, it just came out by itself. Probably because I spent so long learning the difficult melody!).

    A player who is really good at this kind of thing is Jesse van Ruller, in my opinion.

    Anyway here’s my attempt. I did find this an interesting challenge!


  11. #10

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    grahambop: once again you demonstrate the the well-earned reputation of the venerable ES-175 as the quintessential Jazz Guitar. Nice playing - great chops, delectable tone, and swingin' time! Thank you Sir!

  12. #11

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    Thanks citizen! Usually I play these videos back on my computer speakers (or worse still, my iPad speaker!). But I recently got a bluetooth thing which allows me to play my iPad back through my hifi system (which has some very nice old Wharfedale speakers). Hearing these videos over my hifi is quite a revelation, it really brings out more depth in the guitar sound. Sounds like a CD (or a nice old vinyl pressing!)

    Really it seems you can’t go wrong with a 175, I basically just plug it into something direct and press record.

  13. #12
    That sounds great! Really tasteful playing. That's what I had in mind. By the way I don't think there's a wrong or a right way, I'm just referring to what I hear, which is that in a pianoless group it's difficult to hear what's going on harmonically.

    Besides Jesse van Ruller and Kurt Rosenwinkel are there other players that play post bop tunes without piano?

  14. #13

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    I love the music, and practicing the tunes. The biggest problem for me is the dynamics, jazz guitar can't really follow from a point upwards (unless you're Rodney Jones ). I still try though!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iced Tea
    Besides Jesse van Ruller and Kurt Rosenwinkel are there other players that play post bop tunes without piano?
    Jonathan Kreisberg's 'Nine Stories Wide', a trio recording with Larry Grenadier and Bill Stewart, has a nice take on Wayne Shorter's 'Juju' among an even split of standards and originals.

    Lage Lund's trio album 'Idlewild' has tunes by John Coltrane, Bobby Hutcherson, Joe Chambers and Kenny Kirkland.

    Peter Leitch's album 'On a Misty Night' has Wayne Shorter's 'Witch Hunt'.

    Steve Khan's 'Lets Call This' has Masqualero (Wayne Shorter), Backup (Larry Young), Little Sunflower (Freddie Hubbard) and Mr Kenyatta (Lee Morgan)
    Last edited by David B; 07-18-2022 at 02:34 PM.

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iced Tea
    That sounds great! Really tasteful playing. That's what I had in mind. By the way I don't think there's a wrong or a right way, I'm just referring to what I hear, which is that in a pianoless group it's difficult to hear what's going on harmonically.
    Agree with your assessment of Graham's playing whole heartedly! Dare I say, I believe he has the harmony in his head and wisely bans noodling, preferring to play clear phrases nicely placed instead.

    I've been listening to a lot of this stuff lately. Some of it is darn hard to pull off well.

  17. #16

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    Thanks guys. To be honest, Punjab is not a tune I could play ‘cold’ at a jam session, I had to really get the chord progression familiarised first. Also I probably worked out some basic lines to connect the more unusual chord changes.

    As for ‘noodling’, I can’t stand it! A lot of amateur guitarists seem to play phrases which just run ‘up and down’ a scale or something, I think the mechanics of the guitar tend to make this happen if you’re not careful.

  18. #17

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    From a recent attempt:


  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iced Tea
    Besides Jesse van Ruller and Kurt Rosenwinkel are there other players that play post bop tunes without piano?
    jimmy Bruno count (from early 2000s)?

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by spencer096
    jimmy Bruno count (from early 2000s)?
    Not to my mind. I think of post-bop as including a core repertoire of compositions by jazz musicians, such as Monk, Hancock, Shorter, Henderson, Walton.

    Bruno’s recorded some great playing in trio settings for sure, but save for a couple of recorded Coltrane tunes (Central Park West, Giant Steps), I see his repertoire as firmly in the great American songbook/standards tradition.

  21. #20

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    I'm confused, I consider hard bop and post bop very different things.

    Hard bop is great guitar music.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    As it happens we did Punjab for the virtual jam thing here recently. I didn’t like the piano on the backing track I used, so I took it off, but as you say, for this kind of tune it’s easy to get a bit lost without it. What I tried to do was play clear lines based on the chords, and also use some passages of chords in the solo here and there. Also I found referring to bits of the melody was useful (I didn’t plan that, it just came out by itself. Probably because I spent so long learning the difficult melody!).

    A player who is really good at this kind of thing is Jesse van Ruller, in my opinion.

    Anyway here’s my attempt. I did find this an interesting challenge!

    Graham always sounds great and this is no exception. To my ear, the 175 doesn't always obtain a great jazz sound, but in Graham's work, it's perfect.

    My only quibble is the background visuals. How about a blue screen with a NYC jazz club stage curtain? It would complete the effect, because the music sounds like that.

  23. #22

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    Thanks RP. It’s probably just as well I don’t have a bluescreen, or I’d be tempted to use something over the top for Punjab, like this:

    Hard Bop/Post Bop on guitar-1b3dbca3-ef5c-494d-86cc-8507ffbc75c1-jpeg
    Last edited by grahambop; 08-07-2022 at 07:23 PM.

  24. #23

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    I, for one, like to see the spare rooms of forum members.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Thanks RP. It’s probably just as well I don’t have a bluescreen, or I’d be tempted to use something over the top for Punjab, like this:

    Hard Bop/Post Bop on guitar-1b3dbca3-ef5c-494d-86cc-8507ffbc75c1-jpeg
    Very tasteful

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Anyway here’s my attempt. I did find this an interesting challenge!

    Man, @grahambop -- freakin' fantastic! I was listening to this in the background while doing some work, and then I paused, "Hmm, what album am I listening to? I really like this ... Oh, it's grahambop on JGF!"



    [I just subscribed to your YT channel!]

    Here's another young cat playing the tune:




    Marc