The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    Dutchbopper Guest
    A perfect format if you ask me. It worked in my last trio (Trio Chet) and it works great in my current Oscar Peterson project too. You get so much space without a drummer. The music starts breathing. And it is so gentle on the ears ... Recording video or audio is easier too. Personally I love the the drummerless format and if it were up to me I don't think I'd opt for a format with drummer again.

    Here's a playlist with provisional mixes of 6 tunes in a drummerless format. Just like the classic Oscar Peterson Trio. The 7th tune "But Not For Me" is being mixed right now. We need a few more tunes for a CD on Spotify.

    We use the classic recordings of The Oscar Peterson Trio with Ray Brown and Herb Ellis as a point of reference. Sometimes our arrangements are the same, sometimes mostly the same.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...5AIZszW_XJ1PO8

    Hope you like.

    DB

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  3. #2

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    There are very few drummers who are better than no drummer.

  4. #3

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    Playing without the drums is a great experience.
    I played the World Strings Trio for a few years without drums.
    A bassist has a difficult task in this setup - he has to be very musical.

  5. #4

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    Hi, D,
    A great sound if you have a good bassist. To me, it's very compatible with Jazz, Bossa, and "cocktail" standards.
    Marinero

  6. #5

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    A good drummer is wonderful to have in the group. OK, I'm a bit different than most folks on this group [a sax guy for gigging] but I have played with drummers who are great at keeping out of the way but, for me, the set up that a drummer can give on a tune, is really great to hear. However, having said that, I would only add drums in a quartet, sadly.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
    A perfect format if you ask me. It worked in my last trio (Trio Chet) and it works great in my current Oscar Peterson project too. You get so much space without a drummer. The music starts breathing. And it is so gentle on the ears ... Recording video or audio is easier too. Personally I love the the drummerless format and if it were up to me I don't think I'd opt for a format with drummer again.

    Here's a playlist with provisional mixes of 6 tunes in a drummerless format. Just like the classic Oscar Peterson Trio. The 7th tune "But Not For Me" is being mixed right now. We need a few more tunes for a CD on Spotify.

    We use the classic recordings of The Oscar Peterson Trio with Ray Brown and Herb Ellis as a point of reference. Sometimes our arrangements are the same, sometimes mostly the same.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...5AIZszW_XJ1PO8

    Hope you like.

    DB
    I've done a couple of gigs recently with just bass and sax. For some of the material, I miss having a drummer, which may just mean that we have to either work on it more or pick some other tunes instead. But it could also mean that on balance it's better to have a drummer. Haven't figured that one out yet. I'm also rehearsing a 2-guitar + bass group. So far it feels pretty good, but we haven't gigged (which is the real test).

  8. #7

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    I also like drummerless, but with a few considerations. Most of my experience with it has been bass, guitar and saxophone. Not so much with piano instead of horn. Nor, piano/organ kicking bass with horn.

    Gotta have a strong bassist.

    For me, it's best with what I'll call American jazz type grooves, mostly swing, but some even eighth stuff and whatever you'd call the later derivatives of swing. I've had more trouble trying to play Brazilian and Caribbean grooves without drums or percussion.

    For it to be better than playing with a drummer, the drummer-for-comparison can't be a great player. Playing with a great drummer is simply fantastic and the piano/bass/guitar group would be well advised to kick out the guitar player in favor of a great drummer. I think I'm kidding.

    As an aside -- I've had the opportunity to play quite a bit with several world class drummers and it's a different experience than playing with a good local drummer, for want of a better way to describe the latter. The top guys listened better, anticipated better, provided more rhythmic information to inform comping, stayed with the tune better, had greater dynamic range (especially on the quiet end) and, overall, made the music feel better, with the audience moving in their seats.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgosnell
    There are very few drummers who are better than no drummer.
    Apparently that’s also what Chet Baker used to say.

  10. #9

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    I have played in trios, quartets and even quintets without a drummer and have also been in those combos with a drummer.

    My thoughts:

    If dancing is the aim, a drummer adds a lot, if the aim is quiet backround music, the drummer gets in the way unless he/she sticks with brushes.

    A great drummer is an asset, a mediocre drummer is a liability. I feel the same way about bass players, keyboard players and horn players. And don't get me started about vocalists.

    In a piano/organ/accordion trio with bass and guitar, it is nice. The keys comps for the guitar and vice versa (Just like in a 2 guitars and bass trio). In a bass with drums and guitar trio, it is nice, but the guitar has to play a lot of chords to keep things "full". In a bass with horn and guitar trio, things get thin when the horn player lays out.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringswinger
    if the aim is quiet backround music, the drummer gets in the way unless he/she sticks with brushes.
    Brushless is supposed to be quieter ... and what's that about getting in the way?


  12. #11

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    My main trio is sax, bass, and guitar; when we need more volume for certain gigs, we add a drummer. The trio is fun, and definitely a different "vibe."

    [us at a brew pub]

    The Drummerless Trio-marc-why-group-jpeg

    These guys do it well:




  13. #12

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  14. #13

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  15. #14

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    I like kicking out the drummer. I also like kicking out the bassist because I'm an organist lol. It's such a nice sound without drums. Jazz shouldn't always be drumless, but there could be a lot more drumless jazz and I would enjoy it. I don't ever want a bassist in an organ combo because organ bass has the vibe.
    Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 04-18-2022 at 04:28 AM.

  16. #15

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    This place is amazing. First, eliminate all piano players. Second, eliminate drummers. SMH.

    I couldn’t imagine booting Tony Williams, or Jimmy Cobb. KOB without drums? That crashing cymbal, gone. Hey but do your thing.

  17. #16

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    I prefer drummerless jazz. Brushes can be nice, especially if the drummer is truly skilled with them, and not just using them reluctantly to reduce volume. But really, at some point, the “ding-dinga-ding” and white noise of cymbals just became a net negative to my ear - it’s really amazing how much more nuance you can hear in the other “real” (hehe) instruments when the high frequency noise and attack transients of cymbals is eliminated.

    One of my favorite ensembles in classical music is the piano trio - piano/cello/violin. Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schumann and others have written hours of beautiful music for this small ensemble. Everything you need is there - cello on the low end, harmony on the piano, melodic beauty of the violin, interaction between the instruments, but still a small enough group to hear the individuality of each player. I never have the feeling that anything is missing and if only someone was thumping on some non-pitched stretched hide or hammered brass it would truly sound complete.

    While I do enjoy the standard Nat Cole/Oscar Peterson piano/guitar/bass setup, and the Norvo vibes/guitar/bass setup, I prefer horn/guitar/bass. You get the breath-driven dynamic legato vocal quality of the horn, the harmonic freedom for the guitarist without piano, and bass covering the bottom and the pulse. It’s the perfect instrumentation for me.

    There’s not a lot of recordings out there for this setup - I’ve seen the Chet Baker/Doug Raney/NHØP records mentioned on the forum - love those.

    Trombonist Rob McConnell put out a couple of trio records with my own favorite jazz guitarist, Ed Bickert, and a bassist. If you can track these down, you’re in for a treat.

    The Drummerless Trio-88417026-c0cf-48d4-a222-1b710acda5ce-jpegThe Drummerless Trio-821bf511-ec59-4e00-a115-b26c675fcaaa-jpegThe Drummerless Trio-d48e2276-d068-497a-9db2-35a5edbe46ae-jpegThe Drummerless Trio-f149bb82-93cb-489c-923b-70fadf34f90f-jpeg

    I managed to find CDs for these on eBay awhile back - here’s a track that’s on YouTube. You can really hear so much nuance in the attack, articulation and tone of each instrument without the drums, especially without typical attack transients of a cymbal on pretty much every beat.


  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    This place is amazing. First, eliminate all piano players. Second, eliminate drummers. SMH.

    I couldn’t imagine booting Tony Williams, or Jimmy Cobb. KOB without drums? That crashing cymbal, gone. Hey but do your thing.
    Hi 2B,
    I think the point here, at least for me, is NOT to eliminate band members, but rather to find a way to make it easier to play for pay in a variety of venues. I've been playing solo for the last 25-plus years(until Covid) but would love to add a bass and vocalist for a different sound/style. However, I don't think you'll necessarily get more money for the gig with the extra musicians and then there's always the personality issues, time conflicts, repertoire, etc that always get in the way with rare exceptions. So, it's really not an artistic consideration but really a practical one. And, before playing strictly solo, I played in 8-10 piece Jazz-Rock Big Bands and it's still fresh in my mind the attendant problems of a larger format. My perfect group would be Guitar/B3/Drums or Guitar/Bass/Drums with a female vocalist.
    Marinero

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxsmith
    I prefer drummerless jazz. [...]
    Trombonist Rob McConnell put out a couple of trio records with my own favorite jazz guitarist, Ed Bickert, and a bassist. If you can track these down, you’re in for a treat.
    You indeed get a very different effect (and affect).

    I know this is about jazz, but since I"m not the first to cite other styles, here's a 2-person trio where the drummer has/is 1 of the parts without in any way infringing (IMHO):

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    This place is amazing. First, eliminate all piano players. Second, eliminate drummers. SMH.

    I couldn’t imagine booting Tony Williams, or Jimmy Cobb. KOB without drums? That crashing cymbal, gone. Hey but do your thing.
    We're just appreciating the format of no drummer. It's a free country, people can enjoy or play that kind of jazz if they want without it infringing on others' rights for jazz with drumming. There isn't even that much drummerless jazz anyway. There could be more imo cuz it's a cool format.

    Tal is a seminal no drummer guitarist that hasn't been mentioned.


  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    This place is amazing. First, eliminate all piano players. Second, eliminate drummers. SMH.

    I couldn’t imagine booting Tony Williams, or Jimmy Cobb. KOB without drums? That crashing cymbal, gone. Hey but do your thing.
    Was Oscar Peterson first to do it, in 1952 with Ray Brown and Barney Kessel?

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    First, eliminate all piano players. Second, eliminate drummers.
    Yes, and yes.

    but first...

    the vocalists.

  23. #22

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    I don't think Oscar was the first. Nat Cole had such a trio earlier, IIRC.

  24. #23

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    A world-class drummer is an asset. There are very few world-class drummers.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxsmith
    but first.. the vocalists.
    Yes lol.

    Yes, and yes.
    Good thing I play Hammond.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    This place is amazing. First, eliminate all piano players. Second, eliminate drummers. SMH.

    I couldn’t imagine booting Tony Williams, or Jimmy Cobb. KOB without drums? That crashing cymbal, gone. Hey but do your thing.
    Hey 2B,
    Don't get me wrong -- I love playing with drums! In my situation, though, I have a very good drummer in my band; we play stuff that needs to be rehearsed (i.e., compositions not in the Real Book!); and because he's a great drummer, he's busy all the time with other bands! So, to play "our stuff," it's hard to call in a ringer for a gig, and instead of canceling gigs, the other guys in the band said, "Let's just play without drums!" It's fun, and different ... but I really like when the drummer is there!

    Marc