The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuology
    I'd welcome some advice - I've just started going to an open jam and I'm struggling a bit. I'm an experienced player and have been in many bands and jams before, but this one I'm getting lost in. The main issue is that I'm finding it difficult to follow the changes - the houseband is a piano trio set up, although it's usually another pianist by the time I get onstage. When we get into the solos, the pianist is comping all over the place, bassist is really driving hard as well and I'm completely lost when I come to solo. Somehow I manage to find the end of the chorus but more by luck than judgment. Any advice welcome!
    You need to keep track of the changes and tempo in your head. It’s tough but keep going and it’ll get easier. You’ll have to plow though a song oblivious to everyone else before you can play a song with open ears.

    This might be unpopular advice, but everyone did it whether they know it or not.

    Or you can stop playing, put your hands by your sides and are stare down the band mouthing “what the **** are you playing. Play the song” (this part is a joke, don’t do this)

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuology
    I'd welcome some advice - I've just started going to an open jam and I'm struggling a bit. I'm an experienced player and have been in many bands and jams before, but this one I'm getting lost in. The main issue is that I'm finding it difficult to follow the changes - the houseband is a piano trio set up, although it's usually another pianist by the time I get onstage. When we get into the solos, the pianist is comping all over the place, bassist is really driving hard as well and I'm completely lost when I come to solo. Somehow I manage to find the end of the chorus but more by luck than judgment. Any advice welcome!
    A litmus test is to see if you can play a solo over the tune without accompaniment (or just with a metronome). Can you do that without getting lost, adding or dropping beats or bars? If you can't, that means you're in the habit of leaning on the rhythm section and hearing your way through important moments of the harmony in order to keep track of where you are rather than relying on your own sense of pulse and familiarity with the form.
    Last edited by Tal_175; 12-01-2022 at 11:37 AM.

  4. #53

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    Thanks all for the advice, this is very helpful. Yes, I think I am relying on my ear and could do with working with a metronome to lock in the changes.

    Good point about Charlie Parker. I saw a video with Joe Pass forgetting where he was in the melody the other day - it's reassuring to know even the greats have their moments. I'll take care to make sure the bass player is between me and the cymbals just in case ...

  5. #54

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    A serious question: Would you attempt to replace a worn piston in your engine that was knocking and the only experience you've had was changing a battery? Would you attempt to cross an open ocean when you've never sailed a boat? Would you agree to cook for a formal dinner party of culinary critics and the only things you've made in the past were bacon and eggs? So . . . why would you want to sit in on a jam session for which you are obviously ill-prepared? The end result is disastrous for everyone involved and you are being supremely selfish to those who are in the trio and the well-prepared musicians who want to play. It sounds like you need some woodshedding before you venture out to a jam session.
    Marinero

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuology
    Thanks all for the advice, this is very helpful. Yes, I think I am relying on my ear and could do with working with a metronome to lock in the changes.
    I think it’s worth focusing on the critical factor when playing with good musicians who really know what they’re doing: before anything else, you really have to know the tune well. I find that listening to the same tune played (and sung) by multiple artists is a big help in really burning it into my brain. And the more you listen, the more you should hear in the form, structure, melodies & harmonies within it.

  7. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    A serious question: Would you attempt to replace a worn piston in your engine that was knocking and the only experience you've had was changing a battery? Would you attempt to cross an open ocean when you've never sailed a boat? Would you agree to cook for a formal dinner party of culinary critics and the only things you've made in the past were bacon and eggs? So . . . why would you want to sit in on a jam session for which you are obviously ill-prepared? The end result is disastrous for everyone involved and you are being supremely selfish to those who are in the trio and the well-prepared musicians who want to play. It sounds like you need some woodshedding before you venture out to a jam session.
    Marinero
    Clearly the OP isn't a beginner. S/he played in other live settings and jam sessions. It's just a learning experience. It's good to sit out jam sessions the first time to get a sense of the level but sometimes you have to take chances to learn where your gaps are. Experienced players in jam sessions should have patience for sincere learners.

  8. #57

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    I'm in a phase where I go to a lot of these, and I'm approaching it as a specific skill. This had made me improve quite a bit.

    The skill is this- Wait around a while, then play 2-5 tunes competently. Be able to read a chord chart from IrealPro in real time without ever seeing it before.

    There could be some you know in there. Maybe there's some you've heard but not played, or there could be tunes you have zero familiarity with. Be ready for all of these.

    You don't need to know the melody, the horn players always play those. Sometimes I happen to know it and I will double the horn player on the final head of the tune or harmonize it.

    In terms of comping, I often do not comp at all. Jam sessions by me have an over-comping problem. Piano + 1 guitar or even 2-3 guitars will comp all at once and it sounds like mud. If this is happen I do not play a comp chord EVER. I just wait my turn and bring my best solo. If no one is comping I will comp, or if me and the piano player are communicating and he is willing to take turns I will take turns. If I'm able to understand the piano comping and add to it I might play 2 note chords, but usually not.

    During the melody and the first few solos while I'm waiting I will follow the chords and maybe play some comp chords silently with my volume all the way down. That gives me plenty of time to be ready with a good solo.

    When the solo comes I try to have perfect rhythm and swing, first and foremost. Start a bit sparse and then play more notes. Resist the urge to blow a zillion notes because the solo may be short and I've been waiting a while. Make it musical and build the solo. If it's going well I will play a longer solo than other guys played. I am not shy about playing a long solo if it's a good solo. I can tell if people are enjoying it or if they're bored. I have been to a few jams where people wait until my solo and then they take out their phones and start recording it. In cases like this I think it's fine to play a bit longer.

    To practice this, I put on a YouTube playlist of backup tracks and set it to shuffle. I let it play for like 30-60 min and I never stop it. I just pull up the charts as the songs come on and play over every song even if it's a hard song. This simulates the jam session environment. Sometimes I will go back later and check out a couple of the tunes on Spotify to see what the original is like.

    After a couple months of doing this I have gained the ability to do well at jam sessions and I know a lot more tunes (chords and solos without melody). Most importantly, the nervousness of getting thrown in the fire has gone away and I can play at 80% of my ability at a jam session. It's not like having my own gig where I can really stretch out and relax and play to my full potential, but it's close. In the past I had been nervous and only playing to like 30-50% of my potential. It is now way more enjoyable than it was in the past.

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    I think it’s worth focusing on the critical factor when playing with good musicians who really know what they’re doing: before anything else, you really have to know the tune well. I find that listening to the same tune played (and sung) by multiple artists is a big help in really burning it into my brain. And the more you listen, the more you should hear in the form, structure, melodies & harmonies within it.
    That would be a nice luxury, and I also have done this for like 100-150 tunes.

    Open jams call tunes that I don't know ALL TIME TIME! and I don't think it's feasible to have 1400 tunes that you know well and have listened to multiple versions of. Maybe by the time I'm 80 years old I will get there.

    So it is really helpful to be able to play these tunes from a chart if you don't have the luxury of knowing it from multiple classic versions that you have listened to.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    A serious question: Would you attempt to replace a worn piston in your engine that was knocking and the only experience you've had was changing a battery? Would you attempt to cross an open ocean when you've never sailed a boat? Would you agree to cook for a formal dinner party of culinary critics and the only things you've made in the past were bacon and eggs? So . . . why would you want to sit in on a jam session for which you are obviously ill-prepared? The end result is disastrous for everyone involved and you are being supremely selfish to those who are in the trio and the well-prepared musicians who want to play. It sounds like you need some woodshedding before you venture out to a jam session.
    Marinero
    I don’t think you’ve been to a jam session in a very, very, long time. The stakes just aren’t that high.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
    Parker was apparently an amazing player for a teenager, and he started out strong. But he lost the thread of the tune and Jo Jones actually did throw a cymbal at him when he couldn't "find" the tune again (although the story that it was thrown at his head is not true - Jones apparently wanted to startle him for some reason, maybe to get him to leave the stage - I don't think anyone actuaklly knows). Some of those "cutting sessions" could get brutal.
    Caught the Eastwood produced film “Bird” the other night with the Mrs. They used that cutting session story as a framing device, suggesting it was both traumatizing and motivating for Parker. It made her wonder if such intense and destructive competition at open jams was a norm and if this may indicate broader cultural norms. She’s not a musician but has come to open jams here in Japan with me and was shocked how different that would make the atmosphere if it is or ever was the norm in other times and places. Of course, that was only a movie, but in its naivety her probing observation was thought-provoking.

    Before moving to Japan from the US a decade ago, I had never played in a jazz jam session, open or otherwise, even during my time as a work-a-day musician in the 80s in the NY Tristate area. At present, I honestly enjoy the non-competitive vibe of the places I jam at here (in a small city with a mix of pros and amateurs), but maybe that’s only because I’m going to open jams mainly for the fun of playing live music with others who also love jazz.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    I don’t think you’ve been to a jam session in a very, very, long time. The stakes just aren’t that high.
    Hi, A,
    Perhaps, yes . . . however, the sessions in Chicago when I was playing sax consisted of very high-level players, and were usually highly recommended by another pro. I never went to a session where "boners*" were on the stage playing with the pros.
    Marinero



    * a very derogatory term for players whose egos were greater than their skills.

  13. #62

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    The idea of testing myself in an open jam situation is harder to resist than I wish it was. So, now and then I do it. Or did it.

    The last couple of times, I didn't enjoy it at all. The whole thing was a dull roar and I was unable to influence it no matter what I did.

    So, I got to play in a style I don't care for while feeling frustrated.

    That's open jam.

    I love playing in jams which aren't open and in which the players are paying attention to the overall sound.

    In the OP's case, I think it would make sense to record the jam and try to figure out, later, what was going on with the harmony.

    That is, figure out what was happening that threw you off, if that's what happened.

    One thing I like to do when playing in any situation, and double if the pianist is playing wildly, is to set up where I can really hear the bass. I don't worry about hearing drums because you can always hear enough of the drums. But, I don't want a wild kb guy, or anybody else, drowning out the bass. Of course, in an open jam, you may not have any choice.

    If you can hear the bassist playing a root here and there, it's easier to stay with the form.

    And, then there's the issue of what tune.

    Here's an open jam story.

    The call is Aqui Oh at a bar in SF. That's a Toninho Horta tune with a lot of changes. No charts. I've played the tune before, but I wouldn't swear I know it. I look at the band. The bassist and drummer are both well known, you'd know the names of people they've played with. But, an assertive rhythm guitar player is a young guy who is extremely talented, but doesn't read. So, I put my guitar on the stand and took a seat in the audience. I knew that the guitarist was going to play the arrangement in his head and it might not be the one I sort of knew. And, with the multiple key changes in the tune, my ears would probably not be able to follow him. I also figured that the pro bassist would be able to follow him easily, which could mean I'd have to stand there not playing and looking confused.

    The bassist then offered the bass chair to a friend of mine who also had played the tune, but, didn't know it well enough or couldn't follow the guitarist's version. He later told me that he thought he knew it. It was a train wreck. At the end the pro bassist said to him, "you don't have to play a tune you don't know". Ouch.

    Another thing that can happen is that really high level players will play with the time -- sometimes to the point where I've gotten lost in a tune I know well. There can be stretches where nobody is playing anything recognizable and then they all land back in the tune perfectly. Apparently, they can track the poly rhythms, but that doesn't mean everybody can. It's a good experience to have - to feel that happen around you - but you may have to lay out.

    EDIT: After having had to lay out in a tune I knew (and had the chart in front of me) I later asked the bassist what was going on and how to stay with it. All he said was "keep your ears open". I then asked the drummer if he knew, throughout, where they were in the form. He admitted that he wasn't sure. This is a guy who has toured the world with names you know. I wouldn't swear that they actually stayed with the form, but I can attest that they came back to it absolutely together. I couldn't tell if they were counting or signalling or felt planetary waves or sunspots.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-02-2022 at 04:12 PM.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    A serious question: Would you attempt to replace a worn piston in your engine that was knocking and the only experience you've had was changing a battery? Would you attempt to cross an open ocean when you've never sailed a boat? Would you agree to cook for a formal dinner party of culinary critics and the only things you've made in the past were bacon and eggs? So . . . why would you want to sit in on a jam session for which you are obviously ill-prepared? The end result is disastrous for everyone involved and you are being supremely selfish to those who are in the trio and the well-prepared musicians who want to play. It sounds like you need some woodshedding before you venture out to a jam session.
    Marinero
    Since you asked, I was invited to play after one of the players saw me somewhere else, and I've been invited back and to other jams, so it can't have been too tragic. Also, I got a round of applause.

    But thanks for the warm welcome.

  15. #64

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    I do like open jams. I have been to many and have run a good few in my time.

    Great for when you have few gigs happening or to network when moving to a new area. Either you get schooled by superior players, which I enjoy the most, as my abilities have improved over the years with fewer jammers who can give me a right drubbing. Or you school inferior players. I don't really get the complaining about lesser players. Weren't we all lesser players at some point? I've been stuck with some real duds before, who, a few years later could essentially out-guitar me. Hey I still got a few tricks up my sleeve though! Good thing I can sing! Age and experience trumps youth and beauty!

    If I am better than everyone there I look like a boss but learn nothing. Maybe pick up a gig though. If I'm a lesser picker I get to go home mad at myself and use my rage as fuel to improve my abilities. Also, I am not above stealing guitar tricks or stage antics from anyone of any skill level if I feel like they have use.

    It all sounds like a win-win to me. I have had many great adventures in new places and met some great people at basic blues jams. Currently, if I am invited to a jazz jam I need to get creative with my excuses why I can't make it as I ain't ready for that and I don't want to be "oh no, THAT guy" all over again. LOL

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by DawgBone
    I am not above stealing guitar tricks or stage antics from anyone of any skill level if I feel like they have use.
    Paul Newman was interviewed by a reporter after winning a major international auto race when he was about 75. He was asked how he was still able to win over much younger drivers at his age, and he responded: "Youth and skill are no match for age and treachery."

    Do you like Open Jams?-old_couple_dancing-gif

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuology
    I'd welcome some advice - I've just started going to an open jam and I'm struggling a bit. I'm an experienced player and have been in many bands and jams before, but this one I'm getting lost in. The main issue is that I'm finding it difficult to follow the changes - the houseband is a piano trio set up, although it's usually another pianist by the time I get onstage. When we get into the solos, the pianist is comping all over the place, bassist is really driving hard as well and I'm completely lost when I come to solo. Somehow I manage to find the end of the chorus but more by luck than judgment. Any advice welcome!
    Coincidently, in another post, there's an anecdote (could be a tall tale though, so don't quote me ) on George Benson's early days with Jack McDuff...Jack wanted to fire GB as he couldn't play the changes but some influential friend or musician (I don't remember who) asked Jack to stick with GB. Other band members / musicians helped him figure it out and we all know the rest of the GB story.... So stick with it .....You got invited back, so you're on the right path it seems...

    FWIW I have a hard time keeping up with the changes in here:
    . and these guys are GOOD....

    S

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR
    FWIW I have a hard time keeping up with the changes in here:
    . and these guys are GOOD....
    This video is a great example of the difference between keeping up with tempo and keeping up with changes. If you sing the melody to yourself through PG’s truly stunning technical performance, you’ll find that the group never deviates from the original form and changes of the tune. Even at that speed, you don’t need those astounding, superhuman chops to solo more simply over what the trio is playing behind him. And it’s a good thing you don’t, since neither I nor most of you will ever be able to play like that. Few top pros have those chops.

    The time is rock ready, The bass is sticking firmly to the changes, anchoring each bar with a 1, 3, 5 etc on the first beat. The sheer speed and quantity of notes makes it sound complex, but it’s not - it’s just so fast that it feels that way.

    My impression of Stuology’s concern is that the piano and bass at the jam in question were throwing curveballs by using far out extensions, substitutions etc and being freely creative with time. As he put it, “the pianist is comping all over the place”. This is a different problem that’s difficult for many (even most) players to follow, let alone solo over. And that assumes the players who do it are competent and doing it well.

    Orrin Evans is a stellar musician who was that good by his late teens. He was the house pianist at a good jazz jam in Philly in about 1995, and he was a master at flying without a net even then. It made the jam very difficult for many players, and I suspect back then he was oblivious to this. I had trouble following a lot of his harmonizations, but he was right on the beat and within the form of a tune even if you had to wait many bars to confirm it.
    Last edited by nevershouldhavesoldit; 12-02-2022 at 10:36 AM.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by stuology
    I'd welcome some advice - I've just started going to an open jam and I'm struggling a bit. I'm an experienced player and have been in many bands and jams before, but this one I'm getting lost in. The main issue is that I'm finding it difficult to follow the changes - the houseband is a piano trio set up, although it's usually another pianist by the time I get onstage. When we get into the solos, the pianist is comping all over the place, bassist is really driving hard as well and I'm completely lost when I come to solo. Somehow I manage to find the end of the chorus but more by luck than judgment. Any advice welcome!
    well done! Getting roasted is the first step and putting yourself in that situation both takes a little courage and is the best learning experience.

    re following the changes you need to get off the backing tracks and start taking responsibility for your own harmonic structure.


    things that have helped me
    - playing with others (so good job)
    - playing triad chord tones through all tunes
    - Barry harris scales outline exercises
    - practicing comping and listening back
    - learning to habitually feel groups of 4 and 8 bars
    - singing the melody in my head
    - singing roots/bass

    nb: the details of changes are less important than keeping track of overall structure. Modern rhythm sections are quite open in how they treat tunes sometimes, so if you are looking out for every chord it can be confusing. Listen for modulations. Cherokee is a good example - listen out for the C#m7 F#7 chords. Should be easy to pick out as theyre relatively foreign to Bb

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    - Barry harris scales outline exercises
    Can you explain these in like, one sentence?

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Trouble in Mind get played with a #IV°
    I play it like that. Nice :-)

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    Can you explain these in like, one sentence?
    Not really.

    Try this

    Do you like Open Jams?-26214dfd-c7d6-49af-8414-7a63a0978b5d-jpeg

  23. #72

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    Lately, jams changed a lot of things, I regularly play more, I found nice musicians, I didn't ask anything and they came to me.
    They invited me to play on one of their gigs and told me that if I needed musicians for a gig, they would be there.
    You will tell me that they all say that.

    I'm glad that all I've worked these last years gave me something.
    Maybe for you it's nothing but for me it's something.
    Last edited by Lionelsax; 12-04-2022 at 04:44 AM.

  24. #73

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    Can I expose my opinion ?
    Can I ? What ? I should ?
    OK !

    It's about what I heard, the thread is about open jams.
    Well, in a jam session, you share a kind of repertoire and a vocabulary.
    Playing modern is a personal trip you share with your buddies, it sounds weird and good. But if you are only in that trip, you only enjoy it with your buddies in a jam session, if someone wants something more traditional, what's happening ?
    Maybe frustration comes when the basic knowledge doesn't come naturally while you play with a perfect unknown by yourself (not your buddy).
    The other day I asked about a jam session where the "best" musicians meet and play.
    They said to me that there was a beast who played like a beast the saxophone, a cool guy who impressed everyone so well that nobody dared to play.
    So the guy stopped coming.
    Now they say there are a bunch of guys who try to emulate him but sound like shit by playing anything.
    So they said I was welcome (on the saxophone not on the guitar) not because I play very well but because I know what I play.

  25. #74

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    "They said to me that there was a beast who played like a beast the saxophone, a cool guy who impressed everyone so well that nobody dared to play.
    So the guy stopped coming.
    Now they say there are a bunch of guys who try to emulate him but sound like shit by playing anything." Lionelsax

    Hi, L,
    That's my opinion of Y2K jam sessions. You've said it all!
    Marinero

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Not really.

    Try this
    An interesting point is how to do BH scales in 3/4 time. I haven't seen it discussed anywhere (I'm sure it is discussed somewhere). I find it useful to play the scales from 7 to 3 in 3/4 time (ie the 3rd is played on beat three).