The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    I did some saxophone gigs with a pianist who couldn’t lay off the melody. Drove me crazy!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Shoulda told him to can it.

  4. #28

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    OK, here's a question:
    As a guitarist, if you had the choice, would you have a pianist in your small combo?

    i've always liked the way that guitar and vibraphone work together:




    Vibes have a percussive element, can carry the melody, and can comp behind the guitar solo...
    in fact, chordally speaking, the four mallet style actually has a lot in common with guitar voicings,
    but with a different timbre and attack/decay characteristics.
    It's one of my favourite combo sounds.

  5. #29

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    Pianos can get in the way of what I want to do as a player, I have a view on what I want the harmony to be, and am generally moving towards a freer and more flexible approach, and that may involve some stuff that could clash with another chordal instrument. Or put another way, I have developed style that comes from not doing many gigs with piano, which I think could be said of many pianists with respect to guitar haha.

    but I can play with one if doing a gig. You have to be a lot more responsive/passive harmonically. Pianists will make you sound wrong if you disagree, you have to stay in their wake.

    Which is not say there aren’t really responsive, sensitive pianists around, it’s more that, if you are putting together a project and you hire a great pianist, you want to give them control of the harmony, don’t you? Guitar would then be a single note/colour instrument more in that type of group (usually.)

    But I like listening to pianists a lot. I think that’s the problem. You only need one person to do that job. OTOH most would opt for piano lol. But the guitar has some advantages in terms of rhythm playing/tone colours etc.

    Vibes are good! Not every vibist plays four mallets or comps. Some are more like front line players (the Milt Jackson tradition as opposed to Gary Burton.)
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 08-30-2021 at 07:33 AM.

  6. #30

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    Once a pianist makes it to the Jazz stage, he is usually a monster player. He sets the tempo, designates solos, establishes the rhythmic foundation, knows 6 million songs, opens and closes the music, takes long solos in his time frame, and is the proverbial Band Fuhrer in a box. This, in my experience, has never been the case with guitarists. Perhaps it's a mindset or even a personality type drawn to an instrument. Guitarists have traditionally been in the background when working with a pianist. The answer: guitar trios. For me, the guitar has a very intimate sound unlike the percussive piano. And, it is in this setting that its music has the greatest impact.
    One last thing. Generally speaking, the average pianist is a much better total musician than the average guitarist. Most have studied Classical piano with all its complexities, are excellent readers and can usually play a piece correctly the first time through without bumbling through the melody/changes. They all understand theory and usually at a high level. When I was a saxer, I would always choose to play with a pianist vs. guitarist . . . especially in a "anything goes" gig.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  7. #31

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    For me, the bass and drummer are the elements that make a guitar trio great by being equal partners with the guitarist. The bass has to contribute far more than a walking line - a great bass player is truly comping, eg by adding 3rds, 7ths, and altered passing notes that clarify the changes, add momentum, and fill out the sound just as a solid rhythm guitarist uses 2 note comping. And a great trio drummer listens to his or her partners and adds crisp, light fills and riffs like a horn section might do, sparingly and tastefully. The drummer drives time and rhythm with lyrical accents and highlights, rather than with repetitive grinding of the beat.

    Listen to Ron Eschete with Todd Johnson and Joe LaBarbera or Paul Humphrey for a truly great guitar trio whose members are all equal. Soft Winds and Mo’ Strings Attached are two wonderful albums that show this interplay well.

  8. #32

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    Digital piano sounds terrible, OTOH, especially at gig volume. Also, a classically trained pianist will work the mechanism on a grand piano, with a digital piano it tends to sound shrill and nasty to my ears. So probably you have to muck up your technique to play stage piano.

    Guitar is probably a better choice here (in fact guitar was chosen sometimes due to the irregularities of pianos on the road IIRC?)

    The other option is to use Rhodes, but that's not suitable for everything.

  9. #33

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    This conversation is very similar to the one that has been going on in blues for decades... about harmonica players LOL. Lots of disdain for harp players out there, steppin' on everyone's toes. Not so much for taking too much of the melody, because that's the opposite of what harp players do... I think it's more about the fact that the harp is such a limited instrument (99% of the time, unless you are John Popper or Mickey Raphael), they feel they are "allowed" to fill in EVERY space with a blow... almost like they are doing the Freddie Green rhythm thing on harp. Which would be fine, if the guitar player wasn't already doing it. Also, it seems to fill the same space as guitar, frequency-wise.

  10. #34

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    Piano isn’t an intimate instrument? What the? You guys are hilarious with your biases. Hey, it’s a guitar forum, but let’s remain in reality. Piano is the absolute most intimate instrument on the planet! Keith Jarrett? Geez.


  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Piano isn’t an intimate instrument? What the? You guys are hilarious with your biases. Hey, it’s a guitar forum, but let’s remain in reality. Piano is the absolute most intimate instrument on the planet! Keith Jarrett? Geez.

    Hi, B,
    What I said was " For me, the guitar has a very intimate sound unlike the percussive piano." So, I retract my statement since ,as you stated, it is not true and let me try to say it better. The sonorities of the acoustic piano are different from the acoustic guitar. The piano and guitar are, in nature, both a stringed and percussive instrument. However, their volume, pitch and timbre qualities/potentials are greatly different. This is readily apparent listening to ,say, a guitar Bossa trio and a piano Bossa trio. The percussiveness of the piano is more readily apparent in performance than an acoustic guitar unless ,of course, it is an electric guitar which has, for me, similar potential to the piano. So, in describing music, words can sometimes fail as in the above discussion. Here's Arthur Rubenstein and Matthew McCallister performing Beethoven's Sonata "Pathetique" whose music contrasts these two instruments and their percussive natures in which, for me, the piano is a much more percussive instrument than the guitar. I hope this makes sense to you.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    ?



  12. #36

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    An average pianist can front a pbd trio effectively. He chords with his left hand and plays melody with his right -- at a minimum.

    The audience hears melody and comping.

    Consider the guitarist in that position. There may be a few guys (probably with some classical guitar technique) who can actually comp and solo at the same time like a pianist, but most players, even pros, can't do that. Instead, the guitarist creates an illusion of it. It's not easy to do and it's certainly not easy to do for a whole show and keep it interesting. Done well it's great. I'd probably rate "Get Me Joe Beck" as high as any piano trio playing the same material. Reg can do it, but I don't know many others.

  13. #37

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    GEORGE DUKE BACKING ..(
    Digital piano sounds terrible
    )
    Last edited by voxsss; 08-31-2021 at 05:48 PM.

  14. #38

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    What about organ trio? Sonny would hate that lol.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, B,
    What I said was " For me, the guitar has a very intimate sound unlike the percussive piano." So, I retract my statement since ,as you stated, it is not true and let me try to say it better. The sonorities of the acoustic piano are different from the acoustic guitar. The piano and guitar are, in nature, both a stringed and percussive instrument. However, their volume, pitch and timbre qualities/potentials are greatly different. This is readily apparent listening to ,say, a guitar Bossa trio and a piano Bossa trio. The percussiveness of the piano is more readily apparent in performance than an acoustic guitar unless ,of course, it is an electric guitar which has, for me, similar potential to the piano. So, in describing music, words can sometimes fail as in the above discussion. Here's Arthur Rubenstein and Matthew McCallister performing Beethoven's Sonata "Pathetique" whose music contrasts these two instruments and their percussive natures in which, for me, the piano is a much more percussive instrument than the guitar. I hope this makes sense to you.
    Play live . . . Marinero

    ?


    Yes, I get it M. The only thing the guitar and piano share are strings, yet their similarities end there. They’re night and day completely different instruments. And the piano is easier to play. I can get someone playing actual music in 10 minutes.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Yes, I get it M. The only thing the guitar and piano share are strings, yet their similarities end there. They’re night and day completely different instruments. And the piano is easier to play. I can get someone playing actual music in 10 minutes.
    Hi, B,
    Did you forget about all the 3 chord guitar wonders who launched Rock Music? Some bands made millions with so little . . .
    Play live . . . Marinero


  17. #41
    The reason, I think, that most pianists understand harmony better than most guitarist is, it's easier to see that chords come from scales on the piano. The piano's layout makes the relationship between chords and scales more transparent.

    Guitar players have to unlearn seeing chords and scales (and bass movements) as separate entities and develop a way of seeing them as one on an instrument that doesn't' lend itself to that view readily. But it's is very achievable.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, B,
    Did you forget about all the 3 chord guitar wonders who launched Rock Music? Some bands made millions with so little . . .
    Play live . . . Marinero

    That was a hit in 1967. But did you know it was written by Neil Diamond? I didn’t.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    An average pianist can front a pbd trio effectively. He chords with his left hand and plays melody with his right -- at a minimum.

    The audience hears melody and comping.

    Consider the guitarist in that position. There may be a few guys (probably with some classical guitar technique) who can actually comp and solo at the same time like a pianist, but most players, even pros, can't do that. Instead, the guitarist creates an illusion of it. It's not easy to do and it's certainly not easy to do for a whole show and keep it interesting. Done well it's great. I'd probably rate "Get Me Joe Beck" as high as any piano trio playing the same material. Reg can do it, but I don't know many others.
    And the thing is, for a pianist to do that is as easy as breathing. There’s no need to envy that, the guitar and piano are simply different instruments.

  20. #44

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    Piano players don't have to play ten notes per chord. Basie was a master of playing two notes at a time. Unfortunately, most piano players don't play like Basie. The Count had huge chops, could play stride with the best of them, but often chose to comp sparsely, and did it so very well.

  21. #45

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    I take a traditional approach when playing with a pianist, to wit, sparse rhythm playing in the style of Herb Ellis. This way I add to the bass players "pulse" without conflicting with the piano player's harmonic sense. IMO, when the guitar is played that way, it is far more "percussive" then the piano. And that is where a piano/guitar/bass trio works so well. The guitar can fill some of the role usually played by drums.

    In many of the gigs that I have played over the years, venue space favors the guitar. We take up less room than a pianist, even considering modern electric keyboards, and in high dollar restaurants, every square foot is important! That said, almost every horn player I know would , if given a dose of truth serum, say that they would prefer to be accompanied by a pianist over a guitarist. And in the world of jazz, unlike rock/country/blues and even Gypsy jazz, the guitar is the red-headed step child. That is the tradition, like it or not.

    These days the paying gigs rarely have enough money for more than a trio, often the money is only enough for one or two players. I am fine doing a solo jazz guitar gig (I would say about 1/3 of my gigs are solo) and the duo gigs I do are either two guitars, guitar/bass or guitar/accordion. So it is rare for me to play with a keyboard in the mix, but I know how to do it and I think the keyboard players enjoy my approach. Now if they could learn to just put the chart away and learn tunes......

  22. #46

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    I think the key to playing with a pianist you don't know well is to understand what he or she is trying to do and play to fit it. If you're lucky, you'll discover that he or she is doing the same with you and whomever else you're playing with, and you'll all reach an equilibrium that results in beautiful music. Piano styles vary widely, e.g. from Tatum to Evans to Tristano, so you have to be flexible if you're dropped into a gig with someone you don't know. Like those who play any instrument, pianists vary widely from those who think they're the center of the band and try to control everything about a tune to those who listen first and play in context. You're not going to change the former, especially on one gig - so you might as well listen up and play to fit. The audience isn't interested in an audible power struggle, so you won't do yourself and anyone else playing with you any favors by trying to change other players in real time with your playing. Professionalism counts big time here - the show must go on.

    Over the years, I've played with some fabulous pianists who simply didn't know how to get along with others. One very well known Philly guy would often turn to a guitarist and say "Lay out - I'll handle this. Come back in when I'm finished with my solo". But I've been lucky to be playing with the same pianist for many years in a quintet best known for playing monthly at Philly's Reading Terminal Market since 1984. He listens to the band as a whole and has a great sense of place within our sound. This was obvious from the first time he sat in with us when our prior pianist developed medical problems and couldn't play any longer. He's a classically trained concert pianist who's been playing serious jazz since his school days in New York in the '70s because he loves it. I really enjoy playing duos with piano. But unless I'm called for a last minute date and don't know who else is on it, I stick with players I know well (which is almost always the gentleman to whom I refer above). Sometimes I'll be the bass and rhythm guitar (I play a 7), and other times I'm the melody instrument while he's comping big time. But we share the chores and listen to each other carefully to find the best spot for switching roles.

    If I find myself on a gig with a pianist who wants it all his or her way, I just handle it as tastefully as I can. You don't always know who's on a date, so the same person could well pop up again - and it does you no good to get a reputation for being difficult, even though we all know the problem is the other guy . The secret is to know what to play rather than just playing what you know. Here's one of my favorite examples of true interplay between piano and guitar:


  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by dogletnoir
    OK, here's a question:
    As a guitarist, if you had the choice, would you have a pianist in your small combo?

    i've always liked the way that guitar and vibraphone work together:




    Vibes have a percussive element, can carry the melody, and can comp behind the guitar solo...
    in fact, chordally speaking, the four mallet style actually has a lot in common with guitar voicings,
    but with a different timbre and attack/decay characteristics.
    It's one of my favourite combo sounds.
    If I was playing guitar in a trio I would want the other two to be Vibes, and bass.

    I just find that vibes don't tend to sound as if they are playing-on-top-of a guitar due to what you note.

  24. #48

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    If I had a trio gig right now, I'd do one of the following.

    Pianist who can kick bass and drums. This can be a very full sound and the left hand of the piano won't be in the way of the guitar comp. The weakness is that it's hard for the pianist to keep time as well as an actual bassist. I'd sing a few songs if the crowd wasn't too perfectionistic.

    Bassist who sings, and drums. One of my favorite trio gigs ever was this. If I had a duo gig, I think it would be with this bassist.

    Horn, probably alto, and bass.

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    If I had a trio gig right now, I'd do one of the following.

    Pianist who can kick bass and drums. This can be a very full sound and the left hand of the piano won't be in the way of the guitar comp. The weakness is that it's hard for the pianist to keep time as well as an actual bassist. I'd sing a few songs if the crowd wasn't too perfectionistic.

    Bassist who sings, and drums. One of my favorite trio gigs ever was this. If I had a duo gig, I think it would be with this bassist.

    Horn, probably alto, and bass.
    Sorry but your post makes little sense to me; E.g. what does "Pianist who can kick bass and drums" mean in the context of a trio gig?

    I assume the other examples were meant to say: I'd play guitar with a bassist that can sing and with a drummer and the second one would be I'd play guitar with a horn and a bass, but again, I'm assuming here, since I find your post very difficult for me to follow (but hey that could be on me and not how you wrote it).

  26. #50

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    ^ I think he means a keys player who can hold down left hand bass.

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    If I had a trio gig right now, I'd do one of the following.

    Pianist who can kick bass and drums. This can be a very full sound and the left hand of the piano won't be in the way of the guitar comp. The weakness is that it's hard for the pianist to keep time as well as an actual bassist. I'd sing a few songs if the crowd wasn't too perfectionistic.
    You mean Hammond. Let's go!