Big Band Guitar

[sgcim]

Yes, Mintzer, Abene and Mendoza often double tenor lines w/guitar and if it's 'worth the trouble'
I put in the extra time to be able to play it. We did the last Yellowjackets recording where I got to double
Mintzer's tenor/EWI parts... That was big fun !



Over the years I devised my own musical concept how to deal with the 'piano situation'.
The usual line by an arrangeur/composer/conductor is:
'You'll figure it out (comping) between the two (piano & guitar) of you'...
Good luck with that !
If there's a great pianist at work I'll be glad to just listen...

Let me post this great concert we did with the Yellowjackets in November 2019.
Russell Ferrante is an awesome musician and one of the best compers out there...
This is textbook rhythm section playing.

Wow! Some great fusion! Did Mintzer expect you to play all those unison lines with him, or did he give you the option to select what you wanted to play, as you seemed to be saying in your last post when referring to doubling tenor lines by Mintzer, Mendoza and Abene?

It's almost like you might as well have been a member of the Yellowjackets, which is asking a lot of a member of the big band. That was a great solo you played on that one song that featured you.

The leader of the band I play with loves Mintzer, and he said he bought a lot of charts over the pandemic, and hopefully he didn't get any of those Yellowjacket charts, because that's way above my sight reading skills. We're expected to sight read all of the charts we play. I hope he didn't expect you to sight read all that unison stuff you played with him on those charts.
, They're very difficult to play rhythmically and speed-wise, although a lot of them are pentatonic/modal, but knowing that doesn't make them easier to play.

There's a lot of great things going on in Europe, when you consider bands like the WDR, The Metropole Band, and the SWR big band.
No wonder guys like Mintzer, Mendoza and Abene are going over there, because Wynton ain't gonna play many of their charts, and the Vanguard Band has a pretty strict repertoire.

[DaShigsta]

Wow! Some great fusion! Did Mintzer expect you to play all those unison lines with him, or did he give you the option to select what you wanted to play,
as you seemed to be saying in your last post when referring to doubling tenor lines by Mintzer, Mendoza and Abene?

When I know it's gonna be a recording release I'll always make sure to have the music as early as possible.
I think I got my parts/scores for the Yellowjackets project 2 1/2 weeks before we started. Most def NOT a sight reading event !
They included some of my favorite tunes such as Imperial Strut (from the first record with Robben Ford) and Revelation amo
so I wanted to play as much as possible... There were quite a few places where I doubled Mintzer's tenor/EWI lines.

It's almost like you might as well have been a member of the Yellowjackets, which is asking a lot of a member of the big band.
That was a great solo you played on that one song that featured you.

Thanks... you know their history with guitar so you don't wanna mess it up. I've been following their music since their first album.
We did the studio recording for the release and then just played that one concert... It would have been great to have done a couple more !

The leader of the band I play with loves Mintzer, and he said he bought a lot of charts over the pandemic,
and hopefully he didn't get any of those Yellowjacket charts, because that's way above my sight reading skills.
We're expected to sight read all of the charts we play. I hope he didn't expect you to sight read all that unison stuff you played with him on those charts.
They're very difficult to play rhythmically and speed-wise, although a lot of them are pentatonic/modal, but knowing that doesn't make them easier to play.

Not everyone can be on the same level as the best sight readers such as Michael Brecker or David Liebman etc
but you're expected to be able to play and not fumble through the music once rehearsals start...

There's a lot of great things going on in Europe, when you consider bands like the WDR, The Metropole Band, and the SWR big band.
No wonder guys like Mintzer, Mendoza and Abene are going over there, because Wynton ain't gonna play many of their charts,
and the Vanguard Band has a pretty strict repertoire.

Re: Vanguard... Jim McNeely is chief conductor of the HR Big Band in Frankfurt...
Too bad they closed down the BBC Big Band in England years ago. And yes, the Metropole Orchestra is absolutely fantastic !

[sgcim]

When I know it's gonna be a recording release I'll always make sure to have the music as early as possible.
I think I got my parts/scores for the Yellowjackets project 2 1/2 weeks before we started. Most def NOT a sight reading event !
They included some of my favorite tunes such as Imperial Strut (from the first record with Robben Ford) and Revelation amo
so I wanted to play as much as possible... There were quite a few places where I doubled Mintzer's tenor/EWI lines.



Thanks... you know their history with guitar so you don't wanna mess it up. I've been following their music since their first album.
We did the studio recording for the release and then just played that one concert... It would have been great to have done a couple more !



Not everyone can be on the same level as the best sight readers such as Michael Brecker or David Liebman etc
but you're expected to be able to play and not fumble through the music once rehearsals start...



Re: Vanguard... Jim McNeely is chief conductor of the HR Big Band in Frankfurt...
Too bad they closed down the BBC Big Band in England years ago. And yes, the Metropole Orchestra is absolutely fantastic !

Yes, it seemed like every time Mintzer was playing a head, you were there fingerpicking it.
Even McNeely is over there? Shouldn't surprise me, the Vanguard guys were getting chicken feed for their Monday night gig. The lucky ones had college teaching gigs, the rest subbed on Broadway. Then they started firing guys who sent too many subs.

Why does Germany pay such better wages to jazz musicians than the US does?

[DaShigsta]

FYI if you live in Germany...

They updated our Big Band Play-Along-App to Version 1.3.0, which includes 3 new tracks:

'Keep It Up' and 'Philadelphia' by Vince Mendoza plus WooJuu by Michael Abene...

All tracks have guitar solos and challenging guitar parts.

Available in Apple iOS and Google Play stores.

Check it out !

Here's 'Keep It Up' (2017 CD release version)

Btw... if you live in Germany you can check out our WDR Bigband APP:

WDR Big Band Play Along App - WDR Big Band - Orchester und Chor - WDR

It's free and you can play along etc...
Due to copyright issues it's not yet available internationally.

[DaShigsta]

Yes, it seemed like every time Mintzer was playing a head, you were there fingerpicking it.

He asked for it so he got it... Seriously, it was a challenge but worth the extra time.

Even McNeely is over there? Shouldn't surprise me, the Vanguard guys were getting chicken feed for their Monday night gig.
The lucky ones had college teaching gigs, the rest subbed on Broadway. Then they started firing guys who sent too many subs.

McNeely has the Frankfurt gig for at least 10 years now. He's a master musician...

Why does Germany pay such better wages to jazz musicians than the US does?

Do they ? I don't think so. Being a 'jazz musician' (only playing jazz) is hard anywhere.
Being a 'jazz guitarist' exclusively is even harder considering the big picture. Sad but true...

[sgcim]

He asked for it so he got it... Seriously, it was a challenge but worth the extra time.



McNeely has the Frankfurt gig for at least 10 years now. He's a master musician...



Do they ? I don't think so. Being a 'jazz musician' (only playing jazz) is hard anywhere.
Being a 'jazz guitarist' exclusively is even harder considering the big picture. Sad but true...

I was referring to the fact that WDR provides a pension and benefits to members who retire after 20 years. I don't think the Vanguard Band members get a cardboard box to to sleep in!

[DaShigsta]

I was referring to the fact that WDR provides a pension and benefits to members who retire after 20 years.
I don't think the Vanguard Band members get a cardboard box to to sleep in!

You can't compare the situation because it's a completely different system. There are still about a total of
130+ publicly funded orchestras in Germany including 3 public service Radio Big Bands
which are not called Jazz Big Bands by definition . All members have a contract and a fixed salary according to rules and regulations
and taxes etc are being taken out automatically. The system still works but there's always pressure to 'save money'.
As I said before I'm happy to retire after 22 years working with horns day in and day out.

[sgcim]

You can't compare the situation because it's a completely different system. There are still about a total of
130+ publicly funded orchestras in Germany including 3 public service Radio Big Bands
which are not called Jazz Big Bands by definition . All members have a contract and a fixed salary according to rules and regulations
and taxes etc are being taken out automatically. The system still works but there's always pressure to 'save money'.
As I said before I'm happy to retire after 22 years working with horns day in and day out.

Yeah, I can imagine having those 13 horns blowing in your ears day in and day out could drive you nuts after a while.
But at least you can hear the instruments as they should sound, not like the damn saxes on MuseScore, which sound like freaking accordions!

I just heard from the bandleader of the best band I play in, and he's not going to start up rehearsals till September. I play in other bands, but the last time I brought down one of my charts to one of them, they couldn't make it past letter A! The elderly drummer couldn't handle a time signature change, and finally gave up, saying "I can't play it!"

The only jazz band in the US that has a residency AND might have a fixed salary with benefits (I'm just assuming here) is Wynton's band at Lincoln Center. Even the Musician's Union is millions of dollars in debt, and the Broadway players are worried about their pensions; especially after being out of work for more than a year.

[DaShigsta]

FYI...

Our bass player John Goldsby (of Jamey Aebersold fame) put together a WDR Big Band recording playlist on Spotify:
WDR Big Band Spotify Playlist - playlist by johngoldsby | Spotify

If you feel like going in-depth knock yourself out with 80hrs+ of Big Band music !

Here's a pretty tune 'Sheila's Song' we played/recorded with Ron Carter a few years ago. I'm playing a nylon-string Godin Multiac SA on this one...

Y'all have a great Easter holiday !

[kris]

Great playing Paul on Godin Multiac SA.
Great Easter Holiday
Best
Kris

[DaShigsta]

Here's an interesting track from Joe Lovano's 'Symphonica'.
The Dawn of Time with Big Band & Symphony Orchestra.
Lovano originally recorded this composition in a small group setting with John Scofield.

[sgcim]

Here's an interesting track from Joe Lovano's 'Symphonica'.
The Dawn of Time with Big Band & Symphony Orchestra.
Lovano originally recorded this composition in a small group setting with John Scofield.

Another fine solo! You would've been a sure bet for Steely Dan's/Donald Fagen's later work.
Some questionable voicings in the horns. Whose arrangement?

[DaShigsta]

Another fine solo! You would've been a sure bet for Steely Dan's/Donald Fagen's later work.
Some questionable voicings in the horns. Whose arrangement?

The arranger is Michael Abene. He is world famous aka infamous for his clusters and min2nd interval voicings.
And he likes to annoy people like us... Hahaaa... Great arranger though.
He did all the arrangements for the recordings we did with Maceo Parker !

Here's a good one where Michael had to restrain himself

[sgcim]

The arranger is Michael Abene. He is world famous aka infamous for his clusters and min2nd interval voicings.
And he likes to annoy people like us... Hahaaa... Great arranger though.
He did all the arrangements for the recordings we did with Maceo Parker !

Here's a good one where Michael had to restrain himself

I liked his early arrangements for Maynard and others, but I'm not crazy about his recent stuff. We play his crazy arr. of "Chicago" and it didn't do much for me.
I was reading his book on arranging recently, and he stresses that the root should never be played by the horns, yet it's always said that each section in the band should sound good independently. With the sax section you've got five voices; that means every dominant chord sonority has to have the third and seventh and three tension tones? Some of Maria Schneider's charts we play are like that also. It's just overkill.
As far as the guitar parts go, I don't even try to play their chords with both b9s and #9s in them.
Mendoza and Mintzer don't use that BS.

[DaShigsta]

As far as the guitar parts go, I don't even try to play their chords with both b9s and #9s in them.
Mendoza and Mintzer don't use that BS.

I have to disagree here. They do. In general chord symbol notation in modern guitar parts is not very helpful.
that's why I often prefer written out chords (upper structure triads, interval formations, dyads etc)
especially when we're talking modern big band writing. In older writing styles 'playing conventions' of
how to voice chordal structures on guitar when you see 'normal' chord symbols are easily understood and heard.
It's a different story when you enter pan- or bitonal writing/playing which is much harder to realize on guitar.

Btw, we started a new Latin Jazz project last Wednesday which will continue til the end of next week.
The arranger/conductor is Michael Mossman, who you most probably know well since he's been in NY forever.
There the task is a completely different one for guitar: thinning out voicings for all fast rhythmic patterns and go in-style
for Bolero, Samba, Bossa and Baiao etc. Harmony is more predictable, but rhythm is 'King' !

Here's Oye Como Va arr./cond. by Mossman for an album we did with Arturo Sandoval
and Mark Walker (drums) & Pernell Saturnino (percussion).

Have a good weekend !

[pcsanwald]

Michael Mossman is great! I first found out about him from OTB (Out Of The Blue) back in the 90s. Is he still playing amazing trumpet, or is his focus more on arranging and teaching these days?

[sgcim]

I have to disagree here. They do. In general chord symbol notation in modern guitar parts is not very helpful.
that's why I often prefer written out chords (upper structure triads, interval formations, dyads etc)
especially when we're talking modern big band writing. In older writing styles 'playing conventions' of
how to voice chordal structures on guitar when you see 'normal' chord symbols are easily understood and heard.
It's a different story when you enter pan- or bitonal writing/playing which is much harder to realize on guitar.

Btw, we started a new Latin Jazz project last Wednesday which will continue til the end of next week.
The arranger/conductor is Michael Mossman, who you most probably know well since he's been in NY forever.
There the task is a completely different one for guitar: thinning out voicings for all fast rhythmic patterns and go in-style
for Bolero, Samba, Bossa and Baiao etc. Harmony is more predictable, but rhythm is 'King' !

Here's Oye Como Va arr./cond. by Mossman for an album we did with Arturo Sandoval
and Mark Walker (drums) & Pernell Saturnino (percussion).

Have a good weekend !

Rock out, Paul!!!!!
Mossman sure did a lot with those two chords!

[DaShigsta]

Rock out, Paul!!!!!
Mossman sure did a lot with those two chords!

Hahaaa.... C‘mon, you know the tune.
Two chords are better than one... or too many.

[DaShigsta]

He is still his usual self playing his a#% off.
He‘s doing everything at once NY style...
Intense guy !

Michael Mossman is great! I first found out about him from OTB (Out Of The Blue) back in the 90s. Is he still playing amazing trumpet, or is his focus more on arranging and teaching these days?

[Marinero]

The arranger is Michael Abene. He is world famous aka infamous for his clusters and min2nd interval voicings.
And he likes to annoy people like us... Hahaaa... Great arranger though.
He did all the arrangements for the recordings we did with Maceo Parker !

Here's a good one where Michael had to restrain himself

Funkmaster Maceo . . . always a pleaser! However, as you stated-- pretty traditional horn arrangements . . . Love the big band sound! Play live . . . Marinero

[DaShigsta]

Funkmaster Maceo . . . always a pleaser! However, as you stated-- pretty traditional horn arrangements . . .
Love the big band sound! Play live . . . Marinero

Maceo kills !

I'd rather listen to this than to the million-notes-neo-math-jazz NY sax playing.

[DaShigsta]

Now for something completely different... Not a Big Band but rather a Large Ensemble.
From a 2004 concert & recording with Jon Lord (of Deep Purple fame) with many very interesting and challenging guitar parts.

Full album recording: