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12-19-2020, 09:47 AM #151Dutchbopper GuestOriginally Posted by christianm77
DB
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12-19-2020 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by christianm77
tbf the benson school already produced pretty impressive players 40-50 years ago. billy rogers, rodney jones and richie hart would come to mind. then later dan wilson, then sharkey. each one having students and followers who raise the bar even higher.
the dutch guitar school (namely wim overgaauw) has produced quite an amount of talent as well. now jesse (who floored everyone in the early 90s with his virtuosity and rhythmic freedom) is a huge influence. not all is bad in jazzguitar land.
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Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
For example, Benson picking and Gypsy picking are both schools that I think the majority of players can master with good instruction and sufficient application and focus. The internet has disseminated that info far and wide, beyond the immediate communities associated with those ways of playing. And there are a surfeit of fast players who use those techniques obviously. Same can be said for any other ‘school’ of technique - economy picking, classical right hand, Holdsworthian legato etc etc
And in the end, technique is not hard to teach if you have a system and I think what’s changed over the past few decades is there are now systems that work for plectrum guitar. Technique is really no longer remarkable. Because if that I wonder if it won’t pass out of fashion again? We’ll see...
Raises interesting questions about how music gets created, I guess. Is it necessary to be technically limited to be creative in a certain way, I wonder? Would Horace Silver have made music the way he did if he could have played like Bud?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
May I suggest suggest limiting your skill by picking with a spoon in order to facilitate creativity?
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
I don’t really seek out technically impressive playing on any instrument (you don’t have to online lol). I don’t hate it, it doesn’t repel me but I don’t seek it out either.
There has to be more to interest me. The music is the main thing, and then the technique question becomes - can you execute the music? If the music requires a high level of technique, fine. this is obviously a requirement for high level bop and gypsy jazz, and everyone knows how that music is meant to sound, so evaluation of the baseline level of skill of players from those traditions is straightforward. (Which is not to say that’s all it is.)
However, in jazz the executant and composer /improviser are the same person, so there’s a blurring there compared to the classical pianist performing a concerto or whatever. So it comes back to the music, and whether or not I dig it on all levels.
For instance Allan Holdsworth was always someone whose playing seemed to come from a sense of musical inevitability. He heard it; so he had to play like that. People don’t talk about the feelings in his music enough, or the way he made the guitar sing.
Also technique manifests itself in all sorts of ways. It’s obviously not just about speed.
Bill Frisell’s technique is very hard to copy, it’s a technique of sustain and tone colour; yet if people were concerned with speed = chops they might not realise there’s a technique there at all. Those who haven’t got a bit more into him might think it all comes out of a delay pedal.
Or Joao Gilberto, for that matter.
So technique is a very deep thing.Last edited by christianm77; 12-19-2020 at 11:13 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yeah yeah .. You mention Bill Frisell .. just outside jazz there is all the unique stuff Jim Campilongo does as well
But I just have a problem with the notion that technique limits expression .. Hard to believe. We can all sometimes agree that technique can drive expression, but that it limits it?
Technical prowess is off course a separate skill from musicality, but I have a hard time accepting that there is a correlation between higher technical prowess and lack of musicality.
I have a much easier time accepting this hypothesis:
If you limit the technique of a players that sounds unmusicial playing a zillion notes pr. second then he will just end up sounding unmusical playing less than a zillion notes pr. minute.
I mean there probably are some of technical monsters that sound "unmusical" in their own styles, but can play lyrical in less technical styles if need be, but then it's an artistic choice .. I don't know of any, but I'm sure they're there. (Oh you want Grant Green? Sure .. Here you go!)
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Its very multi dimensional in fact. Anything can be super deep when you get into it.
I think particularly with the shred movement etc guitar technique became quite one dimensional as an idea in the minds of a lot of aspiring players. So people became pro or anti technique which makes no sense really. Really it’s more that there were other axes of development. That was always the criticism.... and the good/musical shredders understood this.
(even within shred you have your legato players and your pickers and so on; not everyone played exactly the same.)
We all have to use our time on something. Can’t do it all. Musicians all work hard at their craft.
Obv in jazz guitar the primary concern is usually on the execution of lines and harmonic ideas. Again that’s quite specific. But it’s not the only way to play.... even jazz...
And some people seem naturally able to develop great speed chops, too.
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In case of Eleanora though, I don't see either Gypsy or Benson picking. To me it looks like a very well developed alternate picking applied to jazz, and the rest is just her 'feel'. Who teaches like that, any school? I'd be curious to hear her story on that.
As a teacher I tried to start the beginners off with Gypsy picking a few times with disastrous results. It maybe because I suck at it, but on very basic level I can do it and can show it, and yet it made the beginners sound awful and akward. I dont ever try that again. So observing how everyone is holding the pick different from their very first lesson, I gave up on the idea of universal school of picking. To me it still doesn't exist.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yeah .. The shred movement is definately what sparked the "but can he play with feeling" movement
But again, is that movement viewed wrong? .. I mean, it's easy to look back and say .. That ain't musical while totally ignoring emotions and zeitgeist that movement was rooted in. Music is art and an expression and shred was definately about more than just being musical (It hasn't aged well tho .. but that can be said of many things)
And some of the "good" shredders definately are musical to this day
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Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
That’s not really a problem with Gypsy or Benson picking provided you know how the fingerings work.
I think alt picking could be better understood. I just wouldn’t (atm) trust myself to teach it. I would with Gypsy picking.
in my own playing I use a fusion of approaches these days. I don’t think about it much. It’s a mix of gypsy picking, alternate picking and bluegrass style crosspicking. I even did an upsweep on a recording yesterday I was like ‘waaaaa....???’
As a teacher I tried to start the beginners off with Gypsy picking a few times with disastrous results. It maybe because I suck at it, but on very basic level I can do it and can show it, and yet it made the beginners sound awful and akward. I dont ever try that again. So observing how everyone is holding the pick different from their first lesson, I gave up on the idea of universal school of picking. To me it still doesn't exist.
I teach most kids early on to do this because it helps them keep track of which string the pick is on without having to anchor or look. Free strokes are much more problematic in this way.
But in general with more advanced players if it isn’t obviously broke I don’t fix it.Last edited by christianm77; 12-19-2020 at 12:07 PM.
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12-19-2020, 11:51 AM #161Dutchbopper GuestOriginally Posted by christianm77
In the discussion here the fast players are called "technical." Why is that? They are simply able to play their lines faster than others. Their voice does not change in ballads, same language, different tempo. Personally, on faster tempi I play the same stuff that I would play on ballads. Different feel but the voice is the same.
Also the "soul" thing does not make sense (fast players are often depicted as technical and soulless). Yet they play the same melodic stuff as in their ballads. I do not get the discussion that fast players lack something in their musicality. If they do, they will lack it on all tempi. Has nothing to do with speed itself IMHO.
DB
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
I think actually good guitar players in any genre always have a lot of respect for specialists in other areas.
And some of the "good" shredders definately are musical to this day
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Originally Posted by Dutchbopper
And obviously while certain things can be played fast easily (we all know those tricks lol) to play freely and fast requires a high level of technique.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Troy Grady's presentation leaves a lot to be desired and yeah .. he's trying to run a business also .. but realizing that string skipping was the thing that was holding back a lot of my playing and the different solutions to the problem was huge.
But as you say, after a while it becomes intuitive and your hand does what it does.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
But the focus on string crossing makes sense. And TG’s ideas have been helpful to me. His slow move towards a slightly different way of framing pick approaches shows that his understanding is developing and that’s cool.
It’s also allowed me to develop my right hand while maintaining the same basic inclinations etc, and I’ve swapped back to GJ style because I realise it’s possible to do it all from one position by using wrist flexion for
free stokes etc. Plus I can hybrid pick. Woot. So I can play gypsy jazz style if I want but I can also play things like 26-2 with those nasty descending arps, and reverse roll crosspicking on a Macaferri with GJ right hand posture. Which is cool.
(Some of the less pure GJ players like Birelli worked this all out intuitively though haha.)
But as you say, after a while it becomes intuitive and your hand does what it does. A fun thing is that it will chose a different solution if you're playing acoustically and need to project and if you're plugged in .. go figure (I've discovered I'll sometimes alternative pick phrases on the acoustic, but I will sweep on the electric)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
Way ahead of you!
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^^^
Love the colors.
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I must be part of same ancient religion. I don't like being photographed, videoed.
I'll get off my high horse and stop thinking about it. The days of intrigue are over.
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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I want to be the world's slowest guitar player.
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
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Originally Posted by Stevebol
Julian Lage Trio, Amsterdam, April 17 2024
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