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  1. #1

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    With things re-opening, some friends have been playing live. We play outdoors, about 10 feet apart, wearing masks. There's typically a breeze.

    The idea behind it is that some research indicates that the likelihood of becoming infected outdoors is low. Not zero, but low. Also, some research suggests that masks are effective. Finally, the breeze can be expected to dilute viral load. So, we each decided it was safe enough.

    Of course, nobody can quantify any of that, so everybody is making their own estimate of risk.

    The next thing that came up is adding horns. One argument was that the brass instruments can cover the bell with cloth and be careful with the spit valve.

    But what about saxophones? I can't find any information on the extent to which a saxophone sprays droplets?

    The leader prohibited flute, because of the way the air is blown across the opening. He thought it would spray a lot.

    Anybody have any scientific info on this?

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  3. #2

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    Hi, RP,
    As someone who believes this whole CV has been overplayed, the above concerns of the bandleader seem bizarre. Spraying flutes, saxes, trumpets? Believe me, I spent years playing in horn sections and never experienced this phenomena other than trumpet players clearing their spit valve occasionally during a performance. For me, at the end of a 3 hour gig, I might have a little moisture in the bottom of the bell but certainly not enough to water my flowers. I can assure you, I've played some wrong notes along the way but never sprayed a soul in my life playing sax, clarinet or flute. I hope this helps
    Good playing . . . Marinero

  4. #3

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  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    Hi, DJ,
    I never played a gig with sneezing horns! Good playing . . . Marinero

  6. #5

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    The evidence and expert consensus opinions about the COVID-19 pandemic are that the numbers of known infections and deaths greatly underestimate the scope, reach and severity of the pandemic. Marinero, you and many other people think that this has been exaggerated. That is simply not the case; the evidence is to the contrary. I would be delighted if in fact this disease was less of a problem than it has seemed; I know hundreds of people who have been infected and dozens who have died in the last three months. More will be infected and more will die. There is a manipulative section of media and politics aiming at downplaying the severity and risks of the pandemic in order to protect their economic interests and power base. There is a choice to be made between money and human life and a decision as to which is more valuable to us. Many people clearly are choosing money as their value.

    Unfortunately there are no perfect choices to be made here. If we were to take the stringent measures needed to halt this pandemic, every economy in the world would collapse with all the suffering that would come with that. If we hold economies open and go on with life as usual, the sheer number of deaths will collapse those economies just the same. In my state there are businesses that have had hundreds of infected employees plus members of their families. Most places have chosen a middle ground, recognizing that between 70-90% of the population will become infected unless a vaccine becomes available remarkably quickly; the goal of the measures taken has been to slow down transmission of the disease in order to allow development of response measures to treat the sick effectively and reduce the death toll. The lesson of northern Italy was a bitter one and no country- with the possible exception of Brazil- seems to want to replicate that. Unfortunately here in the US our federal government spent the first 6-8 weeks in denial of the problem rather than responding to it, which has resulted in nearly 1/3 of the global infections occurring here and nearly 30% of the deaths- we may cross 100,000 deaths from COVID-19 later today (hopefully not).

    Getting together to do any activity is a risk of infection. Unfortunately the people most likely to be spreading the virus are people who don't yet know that they are infected. The 6 foot/2 m distancing recommendation is based on conversation and the production/exhalation of droplets and aerosols that may be infective. Singing increases the production and propulsion of droplets and aerosols, so the space between people needs to be larger. Likewise shouting, vigorous exercise, etc.; coughing or sneezing dramatically moreso. Have you ever noticed how far away you can smell someone's bad breath; you are inhaling droplets and aerosols from their airway at that point.

    Whether that transfers to such things as wind instruments appears to be unknown at this time; there seems to be little to no research into this, at least that is readily available to an internet search. Thinking about it logically, however, playing a wind instrument involves high airway pressures which are known to increase production of droplets and aerosols. What does not seem to be clear is the extent to which those escape the instrument into the air around the musician. A lot of moisture exhaled condenses within the horn, keeping the associated virus particles within; the problem is what air might come out of the horn- most of what comes out is sound waves resonating from inside the horn, but often if you hold your hand over the bell you don't feel air coming out (which does not mean nothing is coming out, unfortunately).

    Two items I did find, neither of which are definitive:

    Recommendations to prevent spread of COVID-19 for wind instrumentalists.pdf - Google Drive

    Wind Instruments May Not Be As Contagious As We Thought

    I have played once in the past three months with a trio including a trumpet player (who is also a retired doctor). I am 60; the trumpeter is 63 and the bass player is 62. We decided to be better safe than sorry but recognized that there was risk involved. We stayed about 15 feet apart, playing outdoors in the sun with a slight breeze and the trumpet player on the downwind side; I wore a mask. All three of us are either working from home or staying at home in the case of the retired doctor. This was in the bass player's backyard with no audience, just a jam session. I would not play indoors frankly with anyone from outside of my household at this point in time. Transmission of the disease depends upon exposure to sufficient numbers of virus particles; the longer you spend in contact with others, the higher risk of that happening. There is plenty of good epidemiological research about this.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, DJ,
    I never played a gig with sneezing horns! Good playing . . . Marinero

  8. #7
    [QUOTE=C
    I have played once in the past three months with a trio including a trumpet player (who is also a retired doctor). I am 60; the trumpeter is 63 and the bass player is 62. We decided to be better safe than sorry but recognized that there was risk involved. We stayed about 15 feet apart, playing outdoors in the sun with a slight breeze and the trumpet player on the downwind side; I wore a mask. All three of us are either working from home or staying at home in the case of the retired doctor. This was in the bass player's backyard with no audience, just a jam session. I would not play indoors frankly with anyone from outside of my household at this point in time. Transmission of the disease depends upon exposure to sufficient numbers of virus particles; the longer you spend in contact with others, the higher risk of that happening. There is plenty of good epidemiological research about this.[/QUOTE]

    That's what we did. Outdoors, in a breeze. I was a good 20 feet from the horns. Winds were variable, so "downwind" could not be reliably identified. Nobody touched anything that anybody else touched.

    In the absence of reliable data, everybody makes his own assessment of risk. I'm convinced that it's all about viral load and exposure time. So, playing outdoors in a breeze, 10 feet or more from anybody else makes me feel safe enough. Other players reached different conclusions. I wouldn't argue with any of them, from any position. Nobody really knows.

  9. #8

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    To all replies: I think this "epidemic", for me, is the classic glass half-empty/half-full perspective. I don't really want to engage further since it's all based on personal perspective and we all need to follow our own drummer. Good luck to all.
    Playing again . . . Marinero

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, RP,
    As someone who believes this whole CV has been overplayed, the above concerns of the bandleader seem bizarre. Spraying flutes, saxes, trumpets? Believe me, I spent years playing in horn sections and never experienced this phenomena other than trumpet players clearing their spit valve occasionally during a performance. For me, at the end of a 3 hour gig, I might have a little moisture in the bottom of the bell but certainly not enough to water my flowers. I can assure you, I've played some wrong notes along the way but never sprayed a soul in my life playing sax, clarinet or flute. I hope this helps
    Good playing . . . Marinero

    Over 100,000 dead in 3 months.
    Yep, you're right M, completely overblown.
    Tell that to Bucky Pizzarelli, Lee Konitz, Bootsie Barnes, Ellis Marsalis, Wallace Roney, etc
    A friend called me w this bs today and I almost hung up on him.
    I'm assuming you've never worn a mask, refuse to social distance, etc.
    Incredibly irresponsible imo. It's this way of thinking that's going to prolong this even further.
    As for horns being able to spray droplets into the air, it only takes a microscopic particle that you can't even see to transmit the virus, it doesn't have to be Niagara Falls.
    Kindly let me know where you live so I can avoid it!


  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    In the absence of reliable data, everybody makes his own assessment of risk. I'm convinced that it's all about viral load and exposure time. So, playing outdoors in a breeze, 10 feet or more from anybody else makes me feel safe enough. Other players reached different conclusions. I wouldn't argue with any of them, from any position. Nobody really knows.
    A great deal of truth to the issue of uncertainty and "viral load and exposure time" is the critical factor in transmission. In an enclosed room for two hours five feet away with an infected person that is almost certainly going to be higher than 20 feet away outdoors.

    I think the social issue here in large part is trying to make choices that do not take away other people's ability to make their own choice. It may be my choice to not wear a mask in public because I don't think I'm any more unsafe without one, but my not wearing a mask in public takes the decision out of the hands of others. The mask is not about keeping myself safe, it is about protecting others on the chance that I am infected and don't know it. That's why surgeons wear masks in surgery. Wearing a mask when you're around others is just neighborly.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    To all replies: I think this "epidemic", for me, is the classic glass half-empty/half-full perspective. I don't really want to engage further since it's all based on personal perspective and we all need to follow our own drummer. Good luck to all.
    Playing again . . . Marinero
    While the science of this specific pathogen is not yet definitive, the science of epidemiology of respiratory-borne illnesses is quite well-known and clear. That is not "personal perspective." Indeed the utility of science is to be able to make decisions based on something more reliable than "personal perspective."

  13. #12

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    The Baked Potato is doing live streams from their stage. I'm going to subscribe to one this Saturday...$6 to stream live. If they get enough people that could be quite profitable.

    Calendar | The Baked Potato

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    The evidence and expert consensus opinions about the COVID-19 pandemic are that the numbers of known infections and deaths greatly underestimate the scope, reach and severity of the pandemic. Marinero, you and many other people think that this has been exaggerated. That is simply not the case; the evidence is to the contrary. I would be delighted if in fact this disease was less of a problem than it has seemed; I know hundreds of people who have been infected and dozens who have died in the last three months. More will be infected and more will die. There is a manipulative section of media and politics aiming at downplaying the severity and risks of the pandemic in order to protect their economic interests and power base. There is a choice to be made between money and human life and a decision as to which is more valuable to us. Many people clearly are choosing money as their value.

    Unfortunately there are no perfect choices to be made here. If we were to take the stringent measures needed to halt this pandemic, every economy in the world would collapse with all the suffering that would come with that. If we hold economies open and go on with life as usual, the sheer number of deaths will collapse those economies just the same.
    So which is it? Is it an actual dichotomy with two binary choices? Or is it actually as complicated as you admit to in the rest your post?

    You're interpreting someone else saying that it's "been overplayed" as what? Saying that they actually believe the whole thing doesn't EXIST? The virus itself is a fantasy?

    Or are we simply taking great liberties in inferring that they mean to take ZERO precautions, never wear a mask, no social distancing etc. etc. etc.? How much of a leap was it to actually make all these presumptions against another forum member's intentions without at least asking them what they meant by it?

    Meanwhile, by your own standards for presumption as to someone else's unspoken thoughts, you're a wreckless murderous bastard willing to KILL your own friends and yourself by being anywhere in their own airspace. ( I personally think that kind of jump to presumption is not only unfair but disrespectful.)

    Which is it? Is it a binary choice? Were you murderous and wrong to gather with your friends at ANY distance before a vaccine is present and the virus has been eradicated from the face of the earth, or ARE there actually true PERSONAL judgments to be made by all of us, as was stated earlier?

    I think it's very disrespectful to make very liberally applied binary judgments against another person's character without knowing anything about what they have actually done or thought , while allowing yourself a whole universe of discretion in dealing with your own personal beliefs about this. You seem to exercise a great deal of patience with your own struggles and coming to terms with this.

    Maybe we would all do well to actually admit that it is complicated and that at a certain level, it IS personal, it is a judgment issue for us personally and that maybe it's not our place to make the same judgments for OTHER people. Or we could at least open it to discussion to talk about how to come to philosophical terms for some of these things , but that doesn't come by telling other people what they are and making pronouncements as to their character.

    Just way too much BS surrounding everything to do with COVID-19. I'm sick of hearing Republicans and Democrats preaching their own small minded talking points at each other as if everyone has made a binary choice and everyone lives in the United States of America. They're all implicit in killing people . Meanwhile, apparently, we all want to kill each other as well. Fantastic.

    Republican and Democrat politicians can all suck it as far as I'm concerned. American news media as well...

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher

    Meanwhile, by your own standards for presumption as to someone else's unspoken thoughts, you're a wreckless murderous bastard willing to KILL your own friends and yourself by being anywhere in their own airspace. ( I personally think that kind of jump to presumption is not only unfair but disrespectful.)

    Did Cunamara actually say that or are you putting words in his mouth. Talking about an unfair and disrespectful presumption. ... unless you can show me where he claims a forum member of being a "wreckless murderous bastard willing to KILL your own friends and yourself by being anywhere in their own airspace.".

    And Cunamara said in this thread:

    Unfortunately there are no perfect choices to be made here. If we were to take the stringent measures needed to halt this pandemic, every economy in the world would collapse with all the suffering that would come with that. If we hold economies open and go on with life as usual, the sheer number of deaths will collapse those economies just the same.
    Doesn't seem to be such a binary position to me.

  16. #15

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    When the scientific consensus is presented as some sort of equivalent choice from the opinions of pundits you do have to say; no it’s not equivalent. There is such a thing as a badly informed opinion and a better informed one.

    I’m obviously not an expert so that means I can’t be sure, but personally I am more likely to listen to the opinions of those who are respected in their field rather than imagining I can come up with a better idea by surfing the web for contrary opinions and imagining myself to have some sort of privileged understanding as a result.

  17. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    Did Cunamara actually say that or are you putting words in his mouth. Talking about an unfair and disrespectful presumption. ... unless you can show me where he claims a forum member of being a "wreckless murderous bastard willing to KILL your own friends and yourself by being anywhere in their own airspace.".

    And Cunamara said in this thread:



    Doesn't seem to be such a binary position to me.
    No. I wasn't saying that he said that, ...but anyway, I was mistaken.

    Apparently, I was conflating his and wintermoon's into the same post. I think it's unfair to make the kind of personal assumptions wm did about marino. Feels like watching Fox or CNN , except that...from what I understand, he doesn't live in the states and wasn't making some kind of political comment.

    Every person right now is making personal choices and decisions. There isn't a wrong or right way to do EVERYTHING with regards to CV. Every person could do MORE to be safer, without regard for any other factor in the world, and at the same time, people can also consider other factors besides epidemiology in making risk decisions the other way.

    We don't have the privilege of living in a bubble where time stops and nothing we do or don't do has any consequences. There a lot of complex Issues surrounding all of this , and again, they aren't all scientific. I actually tried to have some of that conversation the last couple of weeks, and no one's interested in having it.

    Everything that's talked about here seems to be from a binary political perspective or talking point from the Internet. Seems to be a lot of finger-pointing about people who aren't doing the correct thing in other peoples opinions , though they live in a different country , are different age demographic , have myriad different factors from the individual pointing fingers. I'm really weary of this. Used to view this forum as a place where we could have those kind of discussions , but more and more I feel like it's just "which side are you on" with reference to American politics. again, I HATE American politics and talking about things when dimensionally.

    I'll just log off for a while. Apologies to Cunamara and everyone else.

  18. #17

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    " I think it's unfair to make the kind of personal assumptions wm did about marino"

    First of all let me say I kind of like M, we don't always agree but I share some of his old school opinions, and we have somewhat similar taste in music.
    But our opinions on the pandemic differ greatly. I haven't met or talked to a single person w that attitude towards this virus that wore a mask unless they absolutely had to. Maybe he's the exception and practices social distancing, wears a mask in public etc, and if so sorry to question his opinion. An opinion won't hurt anyone. Choosing to ignore or downplay this isn't just marching to one's own beat, unless you live in isolation and have zero contact, otherwise you're endangering not only your own life (individual choice) but others (not acceptable)
    But he can respond for himself if he wishes.

  19. #18

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    Study: Up to 80% of COVID-19 Infections Are Asymptomatic | Time

    More fake news? Should this information to be considered relevant? How can you prevent virus transmission, if 80% of infectious have no symptoms???

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Study: Up to 80% of COVID-19 Infections Are Asymptomatic | Time

    More fake news? Should this information to be considered relevant? How can you prevent virus transmission, if 80% of infectious have no symptoms???
    This news changes nothing.

    Stay home if you can, if you HAVE to go out, wear a mask. When you get home wash your hands. It's really all quite simple. The mask isn't too protect you, it's to protect others if YOU are infected.