The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    One thing is, music is not as popular as it once was. Especially as a going out to hear music thing. It's the era of the internet and the online thing, gaming, social media etc.
    I have not found this to be true at all. In NY, where I lived most of my life, there was and is a viable live music scene. The venues are doing business, people are coming out. Maybe they're coming not to listen, but to drink, gab w/friends, pick someone up, stare into digital toys, etc.---but they're coming. Philadelphia, where I now live, same thing. Maybe some gigs pay $75, and some $100 or better. But live music (to tie in to your point re the digital world hurting us) will be our salvation. In a live situation, where, unlike in a video, the audience can feel the electricity in the room when the band's into it, and read the body language, etc. you have a chance to make your case---win over a few who came for other reasons and could've cared less about you or your music. That part is on us. And if you're hired to be wallpaper, accept that and act the part---or refuse the job.

    I can think of several places in Philly and NY that have live music of all kinds every night and do business.

    I am troubled about the digital world you allude to. It has just about killed the recording industry. I have a whole other life as a composer, and now have to figure ways to stay ahead of the curve and earn from my songs. Looking into films, commercials, etc. And there has to be a way to use the net, and not just cry about the theft---believe me, I hate it, too.

    There's always a way. We just have to get up a little earlier and work on finding it...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    if I’m working for Bono I’m gonna want a fee. Typical.
    Or at least a night with Cher.

  4. #28

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    If your playing is so valuable, keep all the money yourself. Rent a place, or even your home, advertise, and charge admission. You should be able to make money that way. We used to do exactly that back in the '60s - rent the VFW or American Legion hall, charge admission at the door, and while we didn't get rich, we made money. But this was in a very small town with no other entertainment, and word of mouth was sufficient advertisement. If you insist on being paid handsomely, that's fine, you take whatever jobs you can get at your rates. But getting angry at others who are willing to take less is wrong, IMO, because if the venue isn't willing to pay your price, then nobody will make any money at all. Music is art, not a product, and comparing musicians and plumbers is like comparing apples and broccoli. They are not even similar, much less the same. In order to get paid for performing, the person who pays you has to make a profit on the deal, at least a little bit. If you're not making money for him, your worth is zero, no matter how well you play. A place that lets musicians play for tips and perhaps a meal isn't going to pay anyone hundreds of dollars per night to play, no matter how good they are. Most just hope to make a few hundred in profit each night, and often don't even make that much. There is a lot of overhead in restaurants, etc, and profit is almost always a shaky risk. So if you're such a great musician that you deserve to be paid well to play, do it yourself and cut out the middle-man and everyone else, and make the money on your own. But it ain't that easy, as I'm sure everyone knows. And bitching about people playing for less is not a productive remedy.

  5. #29

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    GIUSEPPE LOGAN, Tompkins Square Park, New-York

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    GIUSEPPE LOGAN, Tompkins Square Park, New-York
    I bet he is in the 99th percentile of jazz musician income earned strictly from performance.

  7. #31
    There have been a lot of insightful posts here.
    I suppose the angle I am trying to get at is that 'years honing your craft' is fun. That's the problem. Because it's fun, a ton of people do it. Thus, there is an overabundance of supply for the amount of demand. Trying to 'price-fix' the market isn't going to work.
    In his autobiography, Buddy Guy mentions that he always kept a second income - even at his most popular. . .

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by mittens
    Buddy Guy mentions that he always kept a second income - even at his most popular
    That's bad. He took the money from the really "professional" bluesmen

  9. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    That's bad. He took the money from the really "professional" bluesmen
    well at least it gave them something to sing about.

  10. #34

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    there's the classic story of the rolling stones...after making it with satisfaction..they went into chess studios in chicago to cut some tracks...and they look around and see a guy painting the ceiling of the studio..muddy waters!!!

    this tale has been debated...but the point is there..and entirely possible!!

    buddy guy was about as professional a bluesman as ever lived.despite what else he had to to for money...moreso probably!!

    cheers

    ps- great, but bittersweet, to see the pic of giuseppe logan ^...he went from playing in town hall nyc..leading his own band...to playing in tompkins sq for loose change...(i remember that story)...he was highly regarded amongst his peers

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patlotch
    GIUSEPPE LOGAN, Tompkins Square Park, New-York
    Hopefully that's about a convenient place to practice. And, why not get paid while you practice... I hope that's what's happening in that picture. Otherwise, forget about being a professional jazz musician.

  12. #36

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    This party of the story had to do with drugs mostly, something the younger generation hopefully mostly stays away from.

  13. #37

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    depends if you view poverty as the result of drug use, or drug use the result of poverty!

    having grown up in that time and around that area..tompkins sq park lower east side nyc...

    cheers

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I’m thinking of opening a plumbing club. It’s got to have more chance of success than running a jazz club.
    The pipes, the pipes are cal-ling

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    depends if you view poverty as the result of drug use, or drug use the result of poverty!
    Some truth in both of these I reckon, especially in the ghettos of the era.. He was a musician that hurt himself and his career a lot with the whole drug thing. Always a sad thing to see happening, whether the person is famous or not..

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    This party of the story had to do with drugs mostly, something the younger generation hopefully mostly stays away from.
    I was quite serious in saying elsewhere that I was going to play on a bench in the parks near my home. It's a great situation to play with a random audience, preferably acoustic without amp, without looper, etc. There we are able to do what we are capable of, alone with a guitar. It's not a problem of professionalism, but of competence
    Last edited by Patlotch; 01-31-2020 at 03:21 AM.

  17. #41

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    Musicians were never valued really much in average.

    In Renaissance or Baroque or Classical periods they often depended on particular patron and after he was gone (through death or political changes) the artists often fell into poverty had to travel an dto apply for a jb at the churches or courts.
    'Job market' was often overcrowded with high levele professionals. On had to be really exceptional at his skills plus had to be good in society.
    In many cases position of 'choire master' or 'music director' at the court was considered to be a secondary one. Even prominant musicans and composers like Haydn had to combine it with another administrative or political role that was considered to be more substantial.
    Monteverdi got more or less stable income only in Venice but those days Venice was more an exception.

    Later in baroque period the opera became probably the first showbusiness enterprise that couled have been covered completed by direct income (in Italy and Ebgland at least, a bit different it was in France and Germany)... that put leading composers and musicns and teachers in actual business competition: one day stars and authoritive masters like Alessandro Scarlatti could end their lives in total poverty brrowing money from their succesful operatic singers students.

    Romantic period brought forward the idea of an artist per se. But it did not bring much money for some exceptions like Liszt for example.
    In Italy opera vera continued to be kind 'hollywood' of its days (which does not exclude greatness of music of Verdi and Pusccini) - it dedpended not only on rich people but also on the audience, they were pupular among people too who could visit theaters.

    But in general it always depended on the rich educated minority (bourgoisie or aristocracy).


    Jazz came up later as a music from mass culture, and it came to life in a country whwere business and economic efficience was considered as estremely important - it music of the majority on relatively open market.

    But it evolved into elitist music which was accepted in the other coutries oveseas where the attitude to art was not so much commercially stipulated.

    I am sure that art should be supported, it cannot exist today as business in the open market.


    People just should admit and accept that not everything should be sold and bought.
    Not everything is valued by its market value in money.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Why should an amatuer that gets pleasure from playing for free give a shit about the pro? It's a free market...
    between professional musicians, they compete with each other to find a job, just like the proletarians opposite the boss, and the bosses between them, a remark Karl Marx made. There is a priori no class solidarity between professional musicians, except to obtain common benefits. Example in France, the status of "intermittent du spectacle". With a certain number of hours of work reported, artists receive unemployment benefits. When we played my compositions, deposited at SACEM, my professional friend counted hours. This earned him more than the salary for the gig
    Last edited by Patlotch; 01-31-2020 at 05:23 AM.

  19. #43

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    Unless you are buying a ticket for a seat to see a favorite musician, people have no value for musicians. They don't care if some hack is playing lousy shit for free in some bar or restaurant. Just don't play louder than the ballgame they're watching on TV.

  20. #44

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    Music and performance is my hobby. I don't expect to make back the 10's of thousands I've spent on gear. Nor do I think all of those hundreds of hours (thousands?) I've spent learning will be financially rewarded. That has never been an expectation. So while some of us with an amateur standing have become good enough to perform, there's no real money in it. Jazz performance won't pay for a decent apartment and bills in a big US city much less what it takes for a family. Not hard to figure out so I'm not sympathetic. We all have to work for a living and that means a real job.

    I'll volunteer if I feel like it. A Sunday market with friends. The public art gallery or library. The coffee shop when I'm in the mood to get out. Am I taking $25 an hour from some poor musician? Dunno. But if I am, good. They will be a whole lot better off becoming a plumber.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
    Unless you are buying a ticket for a seat to see a favorite musician, people have no value for musicians. They don't care if some hack is playing lousy shit for free in some bar or restaurant. Just don't play louder than the ballgame they're watching on TV.
    Yes, that's why I'm dubious about the videos of Ted Greene or Ron Eschete in a coffee room, and the pleasure of ChristianM to hear the sound of conversations. Certainly on a recording, it gives the atmosphere, the realism of the situation for the worse and the best, but finally me, when I was playing in these conditions, it did not amuse me at all that the audience does not listen to us. That's one of the reasons I just stopped clowning for people who don't care completely music. Beyond a certain lack of elementary respect from the part of the audience, continuing was a lack of respect by myself of my requirements. It's a matter of principle, not to think of yourself as someone who deserves silence as Keith Jarrett demands

    the boppers had sort of pulled jazz out of its mire in American commercial music, making bebop concert music. This did not mean annoying the audience, but being at the level of classical music. So, of course, today Charlie Parker is heard as ambient music in supermarkets. There is no reason to accept the reverse movement and make concessions, unless you absolutely need money

  22. #46

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    But I'd expect people to talk in a bar, coffee house or restaurant. Live music is background music, it's supposed to enhance their evening, especially soft jazz. It's not a silent concert hall.

    To expect a restaurant or coffee room to go silent, stunned by the sheer genius of the performance, would be arrogance, in my view. Also, it's not what the music is there for; it's not its purpose.

    If by chance a room full of diners or coffee bar customers did stop talking to each other and listen enraptured to your music you can count yourself very, very lucky. And very good :-)

  23. #47

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    I remember once there was a concert by Jan Garbarek to a large audience of students. No one there could question the authenticity of the music. But no one there will forget the fact that they just came on, totally ignored the audience, never once looked at them or acknowledged their presence, played, then walked off again. And ignored calls for an encore.

    It wasn't cool, it wasn't hip, it was just rude. A lot of the talk afterwards was about that, I seem to recall, rather than the music. So I guess it works both ways.

    However, by 2013 he seems to have learnt his lesson!


  24. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    I’m thinking of opening a plumbing club. It’s got to have more chance of success than running a jazz club.
    Do plumbers on plumbing forums mostly talk about gear or about how to fix leaky pipes?

    "I just bought a 1954 Ridgid pipe threader. All original. I'm going to mod it with titanium dies for better tone."

    The value of a musician-s-l1000-jpg

  25. #49

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    The reason many of us bailed from full-time music at some point was that ,even in the good times, it was very difficult to make a GOOD(decent) living. If a musician wanted a family, house and life in a safe neighborhood, he had to have a full-time gig(or a wealthy wife). In general, the majority of people don't need music to live. They don't appreciate quality music. And, as many have mentioned, for most, it's a backdrop to a night on the town. The angst comes when we see the 3-chord guitarists making millions with trash can music and serious Classical and Jazzers are just looking to get paid. Well, that's a market economy--give the people what they want. I think Jonah gave a great and accurate historical perspective on Music and we know this can equally be shared by artists and writers. And, although I agree when he says "
    "People just should admit and accept that not everything should be sold and bought.
    Not everything is valued by its market value in money," (Jonah)-- this doesn't help the plight of serious artists/performers who are trying to find a way to play and be fairly paid. Sadly, the reality for most is Music is an avocation or part-time gig. I have mentioned many times on this Forum that I will not play unless I'm paid a fair price. It's not easy, but there are venues that WILL pay for the right performer. And, contrary to what others have said, even small restaurant owners can benefit from live music if it is promoted properly. I have played in many small boutique restaurants over the years and THEY always made more when I performed than on an average night but I have always had a following and promote my gigs with e-mails and flyers. You can buy a ream of paper under $10.00 US and have 500 sheets of printed material from your computer ready for any gig(s) with your pix, the venue and the date. And, of course, admission is listed as free. I have also made deals with owners that if they mentioned my name when customers booked a reservation, they got a free drink, desert, etc. to show them where there business is coming from before the gig. My point is that there are ways to make a fair/decent wage for your performance without playing for peanuts/free but you must approach it from a marketing perspective and provide a quality product. I hope this helps some of you. Good playing . . . Marinero




  26. #50

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    the classical music world has a history of apropos music for dining & festivities...tafelmusik and divertimentos...satie was an advocate as well..via his furniture music!!! an approach that did modern brian eno (thru cages championing of satie) well, with his ambient music projects!



    cheers